The Power of 2119 and Future

[Graymar]

Tom,

First, let me say that write this with deep respect and admiration.

I have a concern that the newer cards are becoming too powerful.

You probably have been following LordRahl's Ratings Formula (which I think he did a great job on)

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=misc&action=display&thread=1130003415

One of the sets of data he presents is the year by year strength of the cards. It seems from this data that the cards are getting more and more powerful. This provides credence to what I feel as I play.

I recognize that others (offspring515) could voice differing opinions

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=GWF&action=display&thread=1151510397

I never found the differentiation that he and I'm sure others experianced.

I 'discovered' COTG about 4 years ago. I have somewhat fought to 'catch up' but also tried to balance 'speed' versus 'enjoyment' to do so. Then New Beginning was intoduced. I was pleased that I could 'catch up' while continuing my 'classic' history by playing for than one fed. I tried several cards with 2119 and just did not enjoy it as well as the early years of COTG.

It seems that the newer cards have more FINISHERS and are much too powerful to my tastes. I enjoy the longer and, in my opinion, more interesting battles that I wage in the earlier years.

Secondary to this thought is my thoughts on jobbers. It seemed that in the earlier sets you had a greater dedication to having jobbers and lower card workers in the league. This seems to have changed over time. I think that a good fed isn't a 'superstar' fed but one that has a good balance between upper, mid, and lower level wrestlers. I don't think that 2119 continues this balance.

One of the best bootleg sets that I have played was Wayne Crosby's WGX sets. I really liked the balance of his sets. When I talked to him about how he obtained this balance, he replied that he examined, in detail, what you had done with your first sets. How many workers in each PIN rating, how many reversals in the upper, mid, and lower workers, etc.

I will always applaud you for your creativity, and thank you for providing me and many others with hours of enjoyment. But, I also encourage you consider the overall strength of the cards in the league and strive to continue to demonstrate the balance that the first years saw.

A continued 'fan'

Graymar

[jefft]

I agree. I touched on this in another post concerning how good Monolith is reported to be compared to the current roster which already seems far deeper and more powerful at the top than any before it. This makes the stat escalation even worse than it already is. I have noticed an unfortunate sentiment from some posters that whenever the midcards and undercarders are mentioned, many people seem to chime in that "I hope so-and-so gets up update...he sucks right now." This can only be done so much and it is ok to a degree if the new set also replaces the character with sufficient numbers of undercarders and midcarders. To be blunt - I think the GWF is too top heavy.

I would also agree with your point about the quickness of matches. With more and more 'add-1' moves and increasing numbers of finishers, matches seem to end quicker and quicker these days.

Good post, Graymar.

[Tom]

Graymar,

Those are good observations and for a couple decades now I've tried to retain a sense of proportion in creating playing cards...it's not easy to move a game forward without introducing new features that make cards stronger.

Having said that, I don't see that it makes any difference as long as there are "relative" differences and a range of distribution WITHIN a fed.

For example, it may well be true that NFL players are better today than they were sixty years ago, but does that make the NFL less fun to watch? No, because there are still some stars, a lot of average players, and some guys that stink, relatively speaking.

The same with the GWF. Sure there's Endgame. But there's also Plethador. For every tag-team like the Master Race there's a team like Big Things.

I think the GWF has plenty of jobbers and midcard workers both in singles and tag. In 2087 it was the Mutant and Pulsar; today it's Plethador and Scimitar. No one is losing sleep that Antak or Gryt are going to win the Heavyweight Belt.

When Chaos entered the GWF in 2092 I don't remember anyone saying that this made the GWF too top-heavy because there already was Star Warrior, Thantos, Spike, Galactic Punisher, Bishop Hell, and others. People loved it.

And you're right by the way. If I introduce a newcomer that has jobber stats many people complain loudly about what a waste he is.

In order to be realistic about overall card improvements I'd say that athletes of the future will improve the way athletes in our time improve. That goes for wrestling and all other sports.

Thanks for the well thought-out comments and kind words, Graymar and Jeff. It's these kinds of discussions that make the game so enjoyable.

[Graymar]

Tom, let me respectfully address the arguement that 'player of today..., etc.

The problem is that COTG has LIMITED selections on the card meaning that each level only has 6 choices. As the number of finishers increases (or Add 1 moves increases) where do we go from there.

The first time I saw a card that had two finishers I was impressed. Chaos with three seemed almost God-like (though he was tempered by the stone)

In 2119, two finishers are not special, three is not uncommon. Once we open the 'Pandora's Box', where does it go from here? 4 Finishers? 5? Finishers on level 2? There are only so many slots to place finishers.

Also to add to this arguement, if the offense has improved...so should the defense. It is a balance. While it seems like (haven't run the data) the PIN ratings have fallen...it's not just about that.

You have been a wrestling fan for a long time. Johnny Valentine was one of your favorites. Look at Finisher usage today as opposed to 30 years ago. EVERY MATCH it seems that Angle, Rock, HHH, etc hit thier finishers sometimes again and again...how many times did that happen with Valentine? Race?
Flair even? I have watched many matches again and again that Flair won (back in the day) that the figure four was never used. I don't remember the last match a 'modern' wrestler won without using a finisher. Todays matches (because of TV certainly) last ten minutes or less. 20, 30 years ago it wasn't uncommon to have 30, 45, 60 minute matches where you were on the edge of your seat. When comparing the GWF early sets with today, this is what I feel. Short matches with lots of big moves versus a long drawn out match where the momentum seems to swing back and forth like a pendulum. My apologies if this seems like a rant versus old wrestling and new. I just enjoy the older sets for these reasons.

It just seems to be a trend that I do not prefer...and I realize that I have only one man's opinion.

Again, going back to Lord Rahls data, the three highest ratings have been for the 2117-9 period. Yeah, great...we have Plethador and Scimitar (extra cards) and Gryt. But, I don't feel it's as special when Epoch beats Endgame as when Kraken beats Wolf!

While I mention Finishers, I think the same is true for other areas of the card as well.

Thank you always for listening to the 'rantings of a madman'.

Graymar

[Tom]

If anyone is ranting like a madman, it's me!

To address a few points:

Pin ratings have definitely fallen. You rarely see 8 (5) or 7 (4) pin ratings any longer. In the old days a pin rating of 5 (2) was fantastic. Today lots of guys have 5 (2) ratings and some have 4 (1). So that provides some of the balance you describe.

Whether matches are shorter now is a matter of opinion. I haven't noticed it in my fed and I still have to impose time limit draws because some matches seem to keep going and going. And whether short or long matches are preferred is a personal matter anyway. I remember in the old days some people getting impatient that a match between Brute and Massif could go on forever.

I still regulary play a GWF fed. I haven't noticed any change in matches that swing back and forth. In fact, I distinctly remember several matches in the past that ended fast, one in particular where Star Warrior beat Thantos in two moves with the COSMIC BIG BANG.
Actually I loved this finish because it was so unexpeced and dramatic and I imagined the fans going beserk!

I don't see any difference with Epoch beating Endgame over Krakan beating Wolf!

Comparisons to the past are inevitable and I'm thrilled that long-time promoters have such affection for the early editions. I share that affection. But things change over time as they have in real wrestling and this is pretty much inevitable. 35 editions are A LOT of games and to try to strike the exact same balance in card play and card mechanics as we did in 1987 is nearly impossible.

Keep this in mind: I've stuck to the game mechanic and a sense or proportion far more than many games I play. A Magic card today is nearly impossible to understand if you look at the original cards. They've added so many new rules and abilities that it's hard to follow. I also play Marvel and DC Vs. and it's the same thing and in just a few short years.

On the other hand a GWF playing card is very similar in style and gameplay as it was in 1987 with some new twists, but not so many that's it's hard to understand.

Believe me, if I didn't add new twists now and then or if some cards didn't get "better" there would be players that would feel like the game was in a rut. It's one reason I decided to start an aCe fed and have a lot of card experimentation in that fed, safely away from the magnifying glass of the GWF.

You can bet I'm always doing my best to maintain the integrity of the game. It means a lot to me. And if people like you share their comments with me it helps a lot! Thanks! Keep them coming...I'd like to hear more.

[Graymar]

Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to listen to one man's feedback.

Graymar

[Tom]

Graymar,

Thank you for your interesting observations and like I said, keep em coming!

[offspring515]

To chime in here, I decided not to long ago to see if matches were shorter now, because that was something I'd seen people say on the board, but I had not experienced it myself.

I took the first six months of my 2087 fed, and the first six months of my 2119 fed and I compared the match times by adding them up and dividing by the total number of matches.

I should mention that I keep match times via a 2 to 1 ratio...IE, 1 minute of real time is equal to 2 minutes of match time...therefore, if a match lasts 10 minutes in reality, the match time would be 20 minutes. I use a stopwatch to keep time for all matches.

2087 came out at 6:31 for average match time. I had plenty of one and two minute squashes, but those were balanced by a 60 minute Thantos/Star Warrior match, and lots of elimination tag matches that went 30 to 45 minutes.

2119 Came out at 7:04. Most of the squashes were in the 2 to 4 minute range, and there were less 30 minute plus matches, but part of that was that I booked less elimination tag matches.

So overall, it's pretty darn close, but for me, 2119 presents slightly longer matches. But as always, it's your fed so your mileage may vary.

[Graymar]

Thanks for the data!

Graymar

[gatekeeper]

graymar said:

Tom,

First, let me say that write this with deep respect and admiration.

I have a concern that the newer cards are becoming too powerful.

Hey Gray, you could always just change the stats on the back.

[swarm]

Whew...am I glad I wasn't the one who had to say it...

See Tom, here's the thing...

I know you have been writing this game for longer than a lot of the people here have been alive...and that's cool...

and I know you have written over 30 successful game editions, followed that up with several successful sister editions like Classics, aCe, CPC, and others...

and I know the game has produced Galacticon, which is going on like 13 or 14 years now, drawing people from all over America to meet in one town and play your game...

and that's fine too, but here's the thing...

you're doing it wrong.

I'm just glad I wasn't the one who had to say it.

jefft > Tom 4-life

[PureHatred]

The cards for the more current sets feel more like the way wrestling is NOW. And the first sets feel like the way wrestling was when the game came out.

It feels like a natural progression to me, at least.

[gatekeeper]

purehatred said:

The cards for the more current sets feel more like the way wrestling is NOW. And the first sets feel like the way wrestling was when the game came out.

It feels like a natural progression to me, at least.

A - freaking- men PH! The game has only gotten better over time. Bravo to Tom and keep on doing what you're doing!

[steelthunder814]

Just from 2087 to 2088 there is an improvement in the characters once they started getting two finishers in some cases. Bishop Hell best card outta the lot with his Hellfire

[PureHatred]

gatekeeper said:

purehatred said:

The cards for the more current sets feel more like the way wrestling is NOW. And the first sets feel like the way wrestling was when the game came out.

It feels like a natural progression to me, at least.

A - freaking- men PH! The game has only gotten better over time. Bravo to Tom and keep on doing what you're doing!

Well I wasn't necessarily trying to say the new cards were "better." Let me explain:

If you're a fan of the older matches that had more psychology, but also no high spots and lots of rest holds, then the older cards probably appeal to you.

I admit that in my fed, the matches do go faster now. But the matches just seem more aggressive and have more big spots.

I prefer it because that's the kind of wrestling I started to prefer during the Attitude Era and with ECW.

And I don't mind the quicker matches between two wrestlers of uneven ability (because I don't really want to see jobbers in a 29 minute match) and I still get to roll longer, 'classic' matches when my stars go head to head.

I do agree with Graymar that more lower midcard wrestlers would be nice. Maybe Tom could make more SE's like Plethador and Scimitar available to people who want a more rounded out roster. Maybe a jobber team, next: The New Meteor Shower.

[gatekeeper]

purehatred said:

Well I wasn't necessarily trying to say the new cards were "better." Let me explain:

Oh I got what you were saying and I agree 100% (and with this post, too).

[offspring515]

If Tom ever gets so famous that he needs bodyguards, I'm thinking Ringer and Keeper could fill the bill.

[jefft]

swarm said:

Whew...am I glad I wasn't the one who had to say it...

See Tom, here's the thing...

I know you have been writing this game for longer than a lot of the people here have been alive...and that's cool...

and I know you have written over 30 successful game editions, followed that up with several successful sister editions like Classics, aCe, CPC, and others...

and I know the game has produced Galacticon, which is going on like 13 or 14 years now, drawing people from all over America to meet in one town and play your game...

and that's fine too, but here's the thing...

you're doing it wrong.

I'm just glad I wasn't the one who had to say it.

jefft > Tom 4-life

Is this always how you and Gatekeeper make your points? Are you two ten years old or something???

As recently as this week I praised Tom highly more than once about the game and the upcoming edition. If you're going to rag on somebody like you're back in grade school, at least get your facts straight...it will keep your foot out of your mouth.

[jefft]

gatekeeper said:

graymar said:

Tom,

First, let me say that write this with deep respect and admiration.

I have a concern that the newer cards are becoming too powerful.

Hey Gray, you could always just change the stats on the back.

If that's what he needs to try to make his game more fun for him...he should go for it. You act like he's changing the original Declaration of Independence or something.

[jefft]

offspring515 said:

If Tom ever gets so famous that he needs bodyguards, I'm thinking Ringer and Keeper could fill the bill.

I think they embarass Tom and the company with these type of antics...not protect him.