OK, WHAT DOES TNA NEED TO GET BETTER?

[Joe]

jester said:

Be original!!!!!!!!!!!
NUFF SAID....................
They have more talent than Vinnie's circus.
A.J. Styles
Christopher Daniels
.

...The list stops.

I have began watching TNA when it first aired on PPV in 2002, and after nearly five years, these are still the only two people that have made me want to watch.

There are a few other decent people on the roster, but the idea that there is some overwhelming amount of talent in TNA that put WWE to shame is ludicrous.

For all the talk about how great Samoa Joe, he toes the line between sloppy looking and downright sad looking. Furthermore, he has very little charisma and even his most vocal supporters basically say his best matches come when his opponents are willing to stand in front of the Samoan Sucking Machine and allow him to legitimately beat them up. At this point, Samoa Joe is a disgrace to the company.

Kurt Angle was one of the greatest performers in the history of pro wrestling. Unfortunately, he is now a broken down shell of his old self. I sincerely hope he gets out before something terrible, or fatal, happens to him.

Sting is a has-been, pure and simple. The best thing can be said for Sting is that he looks better than he has in years. Of course, one must consider that he looked like crap when he returned from the rafters at Starcade 1997, and pretty much never recovered from the time off.

Christian Cage is good at what he should be, which is a mid-card heel or tweener. To have him as the top guy in the federation really shows how much TNA swings on Vince's nuts.

To get back to the actual topic of how I would improve TNA, I really don't know at this point. They had a chance for years ago to build a nice, little niche promotion led by guys like Styles, Daniels, Elix Skipper and Sonny Siaki. They had pretty good tag teams, and a few guys that could handle the microphone. Of course, a lack of direction and poor decision-making completely screwed that up.

Now, TNA would be smart to stop allowing Vince Russo to search the past looking for ideas.

Vince Russo has an obsession with shades of gray. He loves the idea of the tweener, the only problem is that tweeners don't really work when designed. Many wrestling fans seem to have a misconception that the tweener was created during the attitude era, when in all actuality the tweener was never created at all. Russo is making a mistake in trying to make everybody tweeners, now.

The reason the idea of the anti-hero or in between guy ever worked was because it wasn't planned. It came about because guys like Steve Austin and the Rock ( or years before like the Road Warriors and Freebirds) were bad guys who were simply too cool to boo.

The fact is, there is no one in TNA that can really be looked at as being cool. Christian Cage comes close, but he is not anywhere near the level of Rock and Austin in that sense. Or any sense, for that matter.

In closing, TNA would be best served to throw all its available resources at Rob Van Dam when his contract expires. They could bring him in and he wouldn't be looked at as a has-been. He is not as entertaining as he was six-to-eight years ago, but he is still far from washed up.

[swarm]

That is one of the best posts anyone has ever posted on this board, or the guestbook, ever.

[Hegemony]

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to a company with Reverse Battle Royals, angles where the heel (or is he a face) has shot some one in the back of the head, and countless other absolutely STUPID storylines?

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of Samoa Joe's work and put it in context of this ridiculous promotion before you start calling him a disgrace. TNA is a disgrace to professional wrestlers like Samoa Joe, Daniels, Styles, Shelley, etc. And I am not saying that TNA has better wrestlers than WWE, but I think you are being a bit narrow-minded in who you are assigning blame to. The talent is not TNA's major problem, regardless of what you think of a "sad-looking" Samoa Joe. The problem lies much deeper than that and starts at the top.

And for the record, the notion that Samoa Joe legit beats guys up should demonstrate how good he is in the ring, since to my knowledge he is considered one of the safer workers on the indy scene. Apparently, no one has issues working Joe, which is more than many can say about your preferred RVD. The fact that Joe makes you think he is really hurting his opponent is what professional wrestling is supposed to be about, last time I checked.

[gatekeeper]

hegemony said:

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to a company with Reverse Battle Royals, angles where the heel (or is he a face) has shot some one in the back of the head, and countless other absolutely STUPID storylines?

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of Samoa Joe's work and put it in context of this ridiculous promotion before you start calling him a disgrace.

Hegemony, Joe is one of the more knowledgeable TNA fans you'll find out there. Plus, he's just one really smart cat.

He has seen more TNA matches than most people so his opinion is not off the cuff, or unfounded.

I think his point about Samoa Joe is that many people think he's so great is because he's a stiff worker. Not based on his technical ability.

And Samoa Joe totally sucks on the mic. That's why they rarely put it in front of him. Think about it, Samoa Joe has been in TNA form the start and been viewed as the top guy but has never held the TNA/NWA title. I know that blame lies more with the bookers but there's gotta be some blame put on SJ for the bookers to want to put the belt on him.

[jester]

A lot of guys have sucked on the mic over the years and had great careers.
It's called a manager.
The Midnight Express , one of the greatest tag teams ever but does anyone know if Bobby Eaton can talk let alone get over on the mic.
Those days are gone though .
Bring back managers that can talk , and not just a hot diva.

[swarm]

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to all professional wrestlers. He's basically a total turd.

[jester]

LOLWOW !!!!LOL
Tell us how you really feel.
DAMN

[dukedave]

swarm said:

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to all professional wrestlers. He's basically a total turd.

Swarm, I expect better from you. You have ripped on Samoa Joe for a long time and he's a total turd is the best you've got.

[jester]

LOL

A total turd ?!

Are you sure?

One thing you can say about SWARM is that he is passionate about what he believes.

[swarm]

dukedave said:

swarm said:

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to all professional wrestlers. He's basically a total turd.

Swarm, I expect better from you. You have ripped on Samoa Joe for a long time and he's a total turd is the best you've got.

Well it's more PC than calling him a fat, lazy, worthless piece of sh*t. Which basically equates to being a turd.

He's useless. He should have been swallowed.

[Hegemony]

TNA "attempted" to build to Joe's first title reign, something they have failed at miserably in my opinion. The idea in theory is fine, as with a long build it would presumably mean more when he finally won the title. However, their storytelling is so convoluted that any prestige the title has is now long gone. A perfect example of this would be Abyss' title victory on a DQ in a ridiculous match with numerous examples of moves that should have been a DQ and were not until the unfathomable DQ in the end. It is confusing to even write this much less watch it.

I don't think that Joe's lack of a title reign is an indicator that the company does not see him as a top guy. Rather, I think the delay in giving him the title was designed to make his eventual win the cementation of his top status, a sort of passing the torch if you will. The fact they put Angle, their biggest acquisition to date immediately in a program with Joe signifies to me that the company is aware of what they have. Unfortunately, like so many things in TNA, the booking of that program has done more harm than good to not just Joe, but Angle as well.

[Joe]

hegemony said:

Samoa Joe is a disgrace to a company with Reverse Battle Royals, angles where the heel (or is he a face) has shot some one in the back of the head, and countless other absolutely STUPID storylines?

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of Samoa Joe's work and put it in context of this ridiculous promotion before you start calling him a disgrace. TNA is a disgrace to professional wrestlers like Samoa Joe, Daniels, Styles, Shelley, etc. And I am not saying that TNA has better wrestlers than WWE, but I think you are being a bit narrow-minded in who you are assigning blame to. The talent is not TNA's major problem, regardless of what you think of a "sad-looking" Samoa Joe. The problem lies much deeper than that and starts at the top.

And for the record, the notion that Samoa Joe legit beats guys up should demonstrate how good he is in the ring, since to my knowledge he is considered one of the safer workers on the indy scene. Apparently, no one has issues working Joe, which is more than many can say about your preferred RVD. The fact that Joe makes you think he is really hurting his opponent is what professional wrestling is supposed to be about, last time I checked.

When I said Samoa Joe is a disgrace to the company, I did not mean in comparison to the ridiculous angles that TNA runs.

When I called him a disgrace, I meant in terms of Dixie Carter, in 2007, walking into a board room to meet with the board of directors from her family's company and presenting Samoa Joe, in all his rotund, big-titted glory, as the guy they want to build TNA around. That is what I meant by disgrace.

I know so many of you guys who worship the indy scene and long for the days of a territory system that you are actually too young to have seen despise John Cena, but if you ask 100 investors who they would rather put their money behind in a venture that involves visual images, 100 of them are going to say Cena.

That is how he is a disgrace.

In fairness to Samoa Joe, I have seen entertaining matches. I saw a few of his matches from ROH and they were pretty good. He had a good battle with Necro Butcher that I saw on youtube. At the end of the day, he looks like a sloppy, stiff wrestler who is at his best when he is allowed to put the wood to his opponent.

Joe kind of reminds me of Stan Hansen without the cowbell and personality. I don't think I could ever imagine Samoa Joe cutting a promo as good as Hansen's "I got 9 kids and a big fat wife at home," one.

As for not injuring people, I could be wrong, but hasn't Angle come out of every singles match with Samoa Joe sporting some kind of injury or ailment? I might be wrong about EVERY time, but I know Angle hurt his leg in one match and got a concussion in another.

My "preferred" RVD has broken a nose or two in his day. That is a fact.

He is also credited with helping to revolutionize pro wrestling in the 1990s.

He also put ECW on his back and carried it in terms of name value in the 90s.

He also took a TV title in a company that barely had a TV deal and gave it one of the most prestigious reigns of the 90s in any wrestling organization. You smark guys love to talk about the devaluing of titles, RVD did just the opposite.

He also showed up in WWE in 2001, after ECW closed down, and immediately had 15-20,000 paying customers pointing at their shoulders, shouting his catch phrases and going apeshit for his matches.

Finally, to put any comparisons of Samoa Joe and RVD to rest, think of RVD's ability to get over.

There is one person who feuded with Stone Cold Steve Austin and was almost a unanimous fan favorite: Rob Van Dam. Post-9/11, Kurt Angle had a match with him where he wrapped himself in the American flag and got cheered but that was it.

RVD's support wasn't just because Austin was a heel, either. Remember Austin got a near-standing ovation when he brutalized Lita with a steel chair.

I know RVD can be reckless in the ring. I also know he is better at every important aspect of pro wrestling than Samoa Joe.

At the end of the day, here it is: One guy builds a company around Joe and another builds around RVD. I'm betting the one with pot-smoking comic book aficionado does better.

[Hegemony]

Joe,

First of all, the injuries to Angle are the exception to the rule with Samoa Joe. But think about who we are dealing with here. Angle is CONSTANTLY injured at this stage of his career, and not to further this Joe/RVD nonsense but Angle was hurt far worse in his last match in WWE with RVD.

This focus on Joe's physique is a bit disturbing since it seems McMahon's vision of professional wrestling/sports entertainment has finally taken complete hold on intelligent posters. Physique is a part of professional wrestling, but to say Samoa Joe is a waste or disappointment because of his size is to further cement this notion of roided up monsters in the professional wrestling industry, which has been a significant cause of so many premature deaths. For my money, I'll take skill over biceps any day, but we are apparently at odds over this.

To talk of a title's prestige and give RVD credit over Samoa Joe is overlooking the fact that Joe's title reign in ROH legitimated what was an average indy company in the minds of many in the IWC and made it arguably the most prestigious title in North America at this time. Not to casual fans, mind you, but to dedicated wrestling fans who look past the free stuff for the masses on TV.

I understand you wanting to take RVD over Joe given his track record, but you must remember the context of this comparison. RVD's prime was during the most popular era of wrestling in this country's history. Had he come along today it is arguable that RVD would be over to nearly the same extent, and furthermore the ratings for ECW, of which RVD is a big part, are not nearly the big hit your post would suggest. Again, for my money, I'll take the guy with man-boobs that can work his butt off over the guy who runs through the same three spots in every match and half of the time ends up messing them up. But I guess that's just me.

[Joe]

hegemony said:

Joe,

First of all, the injuries to Angle are the exception to the rule with Samoa Joe. But think about who we are dealing with here. Angle is CONSTANTLY injured at this stage of his career, and not to further this Joe/RVD nonsense but Angle was hurt far worse in his last match in WWE with RVD.

This focus on Joe's physique is a bit disturbing since it seems McMahon's vision of professional wrestling/sports entertainment has finally taken complete hold on intelligent posters. Physique is a part of professional wrestling, but to say Samoa Joe is a waste or disappointment because of his size is to further cement this notion of roided up monsters in the professional wrestling industry, which has been a significant cause of so many premature deaths. For my money, I'll take skill over biceps any day, but we are apparently at odds over this.

At this point, I know I have read reports of people not wanting to work with Joe, but they were from Internet sources which may or may not be true.

As for the physique issue, I'm not praising "roided up freaks." I'm talking about people who take pride in their appearance and physical condition. Samoa Joe is not one of those people. He also seems suffer from injuries to his knees and legs (if I recall correctly), which is a testament to his lack of physical conditioning.

hegemony said:

To talk of a title's prestige and give RVD credit over Samoa Joe is overlooking the fact that Joe's title reign in ROH legitimated what was an average indy company in the minds of many in the IWC and made it arguably the most prestigious title in North America at this time. Not to casual fans, mind you, but to dedicated wrestling fans who look past the free stuff for the masses on TV.

I understand you wanting to take RVD over Joe given his track record, but you must remember the context of this comparison. RVD's prime was during the most popular era of wrestling in this country's history. Had he come along today it is arguable that RVD would be over to nearly the same extent, and furthermore the ratings for ECW, of which RVD is a big part, are not nearly the big hit your post would suggest. Again, for my money, I'll take the guy with man-boobs that can work his butt off over the guy who runs through the same three spots in every match and half of the time ends up messing them up. But I guess that's just me.

One could argue if RVD came along today what his role in wrestling history would be, but he did not, so it is a moot point.

When you talk about RVD and his three moves, I assuming you never saw his ECW matches or his PPV matches in WWE. If you had you would recognize he is far more than rolling thunder and a frog splash.

Of course, since you are so quick to excuse Samoa Joe's wack-ass run in TNA because of the incompetence of the organization and want people to judge him on what he did in ROH, it would only seem fair for you not to judge RVD strictly on his work on Monday or Tuesday nights. If you are going to make excuses for one, you have to look at reasons for the other.

[Hegemony]

I am quite familiar with RVD's work in ECW and his run in WWE, and he has always been a bit too reliant on the same formula for me. I just found it funny that you call Joe sloppy and then praise RVD, since to me RVD is one of the sloppier workers of the modern era. No doubt that he has had some good matches in his career, but I think his matches from a wrestling standpoint fall way short of those from Joe. To each their own.

As for the perceived worth of Samoa Joe, again it looks like we will have to respectfully disagree. I don't get the focus many others have on weight issues, instead choosing to focus on the quality of his matches. I apply similar logic to guys like Vader, who may not be too aesthetically pleasing to look at but can get it done in the ring. But when people are reduced to making fat jokes it says something about his other qualitites which are rarely criticized.

[swarm]

Vader was forty billion times better than Fat Joe will ever be. Horrible comparison. Vader was a legit big man. Joe is a legit medium sized guy who happens to be completely out of shape.

[Hegemony]

Vader is def. bigger, my point is that body type is not and should not be the determining factor of a wrestler's worth. Joe, with his man-boobs, is a very good wrestler and can be booked as a monster when facing the right opponent.

[Joe]

hegemony said:

Vader is def. bigger, my point is that body type is not and should not be the determining factor of a wrestler's worth. Joe, with his man-boobs, is a very good wrestler and can be booked as a monster when facing the right opponent.

You are absolutely right, which is why Samoa Joe has floundered since being removed from the X-Division.

When I refer to Joe being sloppy, I meant his appearance and the shameful work out habits the man obviously has.

I agree with Swarm that you cannot compare Samoa Joe to Vader. As he said, Vader was a monster, regardless of who he was in the ring. This is kind of like comparing a defensive tackle, who may not have the most amazing physique but is very imposing physically, to a guy who is barely 6'0" tall and got his physique from an un-healthy diet of beer, cheeseburgers and no exercise.

[gatekeeper]

And I doubt many people would say that the ROH title was the most prestigious title in North America. I think YOU and many indy lovers want to believe that, but there is no way in hell that is true.

Greg Helms' WWE Cruiserweight title is more prestigious than ANY indy title in the history of wrestling.

Again, this is the same argument we've heard on this board forever. Just because you can do a million flips per match doesn't mean you're a great pro wrestler. You have to get people to pay to want to see you.

King Kong Bundy was not the greatest technical wrestler but everyone wanted to see Hogan fight him. That's what makes you good. Putting an a*s every 18 inches as J.R. would say.

[Hegemony]

The fact that when I say ROH and you think flips is a prime indicator that you really need to sit down and watch that product. You may be surprised.