Cards with 'last minute editing' issues?

[godzillajoe2k4]

In another thread someone mentioned Hackenschmidt's deathjump and how it was a result of last minute editing problems.

I know these guys do a great job but there seem to be a lot of these.

Mil Mascaras also has a duplicate move on his card.

So my question is, do we know which cards have such issues and what the move or stat was SUPPOSED to be so if we want to fix them in our fed, we can.

[GalactiKing]

someone had mentioned that Mil was supposed to have stranding dropkick instead of standing surfboard and that Harley Race's extra neckbreaker was supposed to be a back suplex(I think)

[godzillajoe2k4]

Yeah those are the two I remember mentioned before. Wondering if there are any more.

[pikemojo]

i had actually heard that mascaras' second standing surfboard was because he had 2 variations on the move
i think that tom said that somewhere
i have thought it kind of weird that someone like hackenschmidt or gotch would throw someone out of the ring or even worse retreat to the outside

[godzillajoe2k4]

Whenever I have a problem with a move like Out Of Ring for a guy that wouldn't do it, I just "pretend" that it was a move they did that knocked the guy out. Especially if that causes a count out. So if they win on a count out, I may say it's because he clotheslined the other guy and he fell through the ropes.

Same for guys like Gotch or Hack. If they're in trouble I may use the (lv) option but you can always blame it on their opponent kicking them under the bottom rope or doing something that caused them to fall out. A ringside ally pulling down the top rope etc.

I generally only have the heels throw someone out or leave the ring because they're being a coward. Unless it's a roughhouse face like a Duggan or Sandman where tossing a guy out or leaving the ring to get a chair is right up their alley

[GalactiKing]

I find out of the ring a good excuse for a defensive reversal. One instance was a match between Ox Baker and Red Bastien. Technically it ended after Ox hit a suplex on Red, Red rolled out took the advantage and hit the Atomic Drop to win. How I did it was, Baker went for the suplex, but Bastien flipped over and hit the Atomic Drop for the win without going out of the ring.

[Chad Olson]

I'm sorry if there appears to be "a lot of" cards with some mistakes. Here's what happens with the Legends card creation process:

1) Tim & I create the stats for the cards.
2) We send them Tom, who reviews them and passes them along to Bob Hoffa.
3) Hoffa sets up draft copies, and distributes them to Tom, Tim & myself.
4) We forward any changes or suggestions back to Bob Hoffa. However, Tim & I don't ever see the results of these changes. Also, Tom might move some people's stats around a bit to change up these offenses, which is what led to the double surfboards & neckbreakers. In Hack's case, I think it was Tom trying to structure his card within the rules and give him a deathjump, forgetting that we try not to give people from that time period deathjumps. Obviously, with the hundreds of cards Tom has put together, you can't blame him for using that rule and forgetting there should be 2 exceptions (thus far!)
5) Hoffa puts together the final drafts and then prints the cards? That I'm unsure of, as Tim & I never see the cards after #3 until we get the set in our hands when everyone else does. Folks who've attended GalactiCon know that mistakes happen, like the HALOCAUST card, Ursa Major's missing L1O (ch), move and Phantasy's missing cage rating among others.

So, there are 4 instances of moves being changed around that aren't what were on the original cards that caused small mistakes.... Hack's deathjump (ch) should be a (ch C) according to my original draft. Mascaras' L2O standing surfboard was originally a standing dropkick. Race's swinging neckbreaker on L3O was a back suplex. And I don't think anyone's ever mentioned it, but Chris Candido has 3 Level 1 moves on his card. His second Level 1 move on L1O (I apologize for not having the cards in front of me) is supposed to be a Level 2 move.

Hope you find this look into the Legends card creating process helpful. It's a lot of fun to do all this research, send the drafts off to Tom, and then start debating. We are currently in the middle of an email string regarding the cards we've created for the next set, and I think you'll be excited by Tom's signings at the top level. There's also a couple of good utility characters that will fit in nicely with others, plus a couple of fun things that Tom's been wanting to introduce for awhile now. I'm really impressed with some of the guesses that people have been making here about whose coming in, as some have been right on the money.

Since this subject does come up every few months, perhaps the moderators would like to sticky this or file it somewhere. Hopefully we won't have to add any more wrestlers to this list, but we appreciate your understanding!

[Tim Dalton]

The Candido card was the only other one I could think of as well.

Due to tax season, I've had less involvement with Vintage, but I agree with Chad that there are some exciting things planned.

[thefamoustommyz]

Thanks for the insight, gentlemen. I sure appreciate it, and I know others do, as well as the work that all of you put into the sets.

On Candido, I just assumed he was meant to be a tad weaker than most cards...=)

Oh, and consider this sticky unless Chris decides it shouldn't be.

[pikemojo]

now my question is should the cards be changed by us to match the intended stats?
i think i might just do that myself especially since we have 2 of the card creators here telling us what was supposed to be
thanks guys

[godzillajoe2k4]

Chad, thanks for the info.

Like I said, I DO appreciate the work you guys put into these games, I guess "a lot" was a poor choice of words.

Now, I gotta scan the "bad" cards and fix their stats so i don't have to alter the originals.

[GalactiKing]

Well for me, in my mind I've been replacing surfboard and neckbreaker with dropkick and back suplex when Masacras or Race wrestle. The Candido thing doesn't bother me, and Hackenschmidt I'll chew on for a while.

[Chad Olson]

godzillajoe: And I apologize if I sounded snippy, I was just trying to show that there are a couple of errors, but most of the stuff is close to where it started. I'm happy to fess up when any sneak by though!

Pikemojo & Troy: I think the change that will effect game play most is on Hack's card, since you're going from a potential L3O move to a move that can result in a pin or completely backfire for Hack. I'll probably stick with the (ch C), since I try to keep Gotch & Hack as guys who refuse to use some of the "crazy" moves their fellow wrestlers are using. I picture them more as UWFI style fighters, where they're using a more "realistic" form of pro wrestling.

[Not giving my name for fear of]

I really wish Tom wouldn't change moves around unless he is sure what he is doing. The mistakes, to me, IMO, are inexcusable. In the past, they were excusable when it was a little game with his own characters. Now with real wrestlers, he needs to get it right the first time. It seems as if he is promoting himself more than the game. To me, the game is more important. Hence, constant look at me with this guy or that guy, changing the website name to "filsingergames.com" from gwf; and now a book about himself. What about the game and spending time on the quality of it. I also think the game fans let this go way too much. Plus the promoter is horrible. I what smaller print with more info. Everything is the same except maybe two pages. I don't think Tom writes most of what is put out in the promoter nor game editions. It mostly sounds like Mark's writing. Remember there are more intelligent adults playing this game than young kids. I just think the quality of the whole universe has gone down hill. This is all my opinion and I say it because I want a Legends with no errors done professionally. No more kidding around excuses.

[gwffantrav]

I respect your point Not Giving, but I don't think Tom is putting out a book or changing the name of his website to filsingergames.com for ego purposes.

There are many fans who want to get to know just who Tom is and what goes on behind the scenes, whether it is going about writing cards, his thought process, etc. I've only attended one Galacticon and many promoters never will be able to attend, so I know a lot just want to know about the man himself.

I actually work for UPS and I write for their publication (don't take into account my writing here!). You don't know, how many times you proofread, etc, that something may always slip by. If you read your local paper, everyday, there is corrections from the previous issue. Somethings get by.

I can handle Hack's deathjump and Candido's Level 1 moves. . I didn't agree with the Race and Mascaras' moves, but now know the reason and can deal with it and pretend they're the original moves.

And it may get old with Tom looking over things, etc, but his company is called FILSINGER games. I hate my editor looking over my shoulder as well, but hey, I get a nice check for sitting at a computer with great benefits, stock options, 401K, so I deal with it. It's never going to hurt my feelings. We're still friends. I think the same can be said about Cory and Tim (without the "benefits" of course!)

But look at what Tom has managed to do! Look at the signings!!! Who would have ever thought we would get a game like the LWF!!! I remember playing Superstar Pro Wrestling in my youth (or whatever that one was called) and the LWF is 100 times better than that game! There was no offensive/defensive flow to that game! What Tom has done is absolutely insane! Road Warriors, Brody, Gotch, Midnight Express, Mascaras! This is heaven!!!

Keep the dice rolling Not Giving, I know your point and greatly respect it. I don't agree with 100%, but man, the top side of the LWF is incredible!!!

[CynthiaCM]

GWFfanTrav said:

I I actually work for UPS and I write for their publication (don't take into account my writing here!). You don't know, how many times you proofread, etc, that something may always slip by. If you read your local paper, everyday, there is corrections from the previous issue. Somethings get by.

I'm involved in the game industry, so I deal with a lot of the same procedures that you and Tom do. As such, I completely concur. While the majority of the errors can be flushed out by thorough editing, there's no such thing as a flawless product. There just isn't.

[Dark Menace]

Guest-Not said:

I really wish Tom wouldn't change moves around unless he is sure what he is doing. The mistakes, to me, IMO, are inexcusable. In the past, they were excusable when it was a little game with his own characters. Now with real wrestlers, he needs to get it right the first time. It seems as if he is promoting himself more than the game. To me, the game is more important. Hence, constant look at me with this guy or that guy, changing the website name to "filsingergames.com" from gwf; and now a book about himself. What about the game and spending time on the quality of it. I also think the game fans let this go way too much. I just think the quality of the whole universe has gone down hill. This is all my opinion and I say it because I want a Legends with no errors done professionally. No more kidding around excuses.

As you can see, I'm also not giving my name, but I've been thinking a few of these things myself for awhile. I'm glad I am not alone. "Sorry about the screw-ups but hey thanks for your money" is the feeling I get from the situation. But you have to dig a little deeper here. A few years back, Tom came to a crossroads where he didn't know if he was going to continue COTG or not. I think that he thought "Fine, I'll keep doing it for the loyal promoters but I'm going to get all the money I can out of this" Shortly thereafter, the product line of FG exploded, and has done so ever since. But the truth is I really can't blame the guy. He's just a businessman trying to make a buck.

[Tom]

This has been an interesting discussion. Chad has done a nice job of summarizing some of the very few card revisions that got lost in translation. I believe our Legends team has done a great job of capturing the feel of each wrestler on their playing cards and the few "mistakes" listed are not even noticeable unless a person digs deep for them.

I wish (or maybe I don't) there had been a forum for games like Strat-O-Matic and other games when I purchased them. I often had questions about player ratings and possible card mistakes. I still have those questions when I play the VS System, which features Marvel and DC characters. But then I just let it go, make a ruling of some kind, and play. That's the bottom line---to have a good time.

Cindy, another game professional, is correct when she says it's hard to dissect every detail and release a flawless game. How can Champions of the Galaxy fans ever forget the infamous "bite to head" on the card of a wrestler who had his mouth sewn shut! When you look at my mistakes over time, give me credit...I've been consistent! I've been making some mistakes from the beginning. In fact, they've become part of GWF lore.

Actually, I'm glad the game has got such high standards and such an intelligent fan base that it can withstand this type of scrutiny. That proves we've established a high standard and I'm proud of that. Who bothers to dissect and analyze a game they don't like or don't respect?

Our goal, with Legends, is to produce the best tribute to the history of professional wrestling that is possible in game form. I'm proud of our effort, but we'll always be vigilant to do better where possible.

With all due respect to "Not giving my name for fear of " and "dark menace," they are mistaken in several of their assumptions. I hope they have found some pleasure in playing COTG and LOW. Apparently they have or they wouldn't be here.

To them and everyone else---We love creating our wrestling games and we're looking forward to our coming releases! The best is yet ahead.

[pikemojo]

to Dark Menace
i have never gotten the impression that tom was out to just get our money
each set of legends cards has only costed 12 dollars
that is not very much to ask considering how much work and time goes into each set
i have always gotten the impression from tom that he really cares about wrestling history and only does LOW and COTW because he loves doing it and loves wrestling and gaming
lighten up
it is just a game

[Press Slam]

I agree, I order from abroad and I find the price very reasonable and fair (not that I'm asking for it to go up . The other thing worth mentioning is that on this site there are details and help on creating your own characters and bootlegs which means that if a person is genuinely hard up or would like to create a character to their creative liking they can do it from scratch and for free without even purchasing any game editions, if you couple that with the medium which Tom has created on this website where other 'Promoters' can share things like the characters they have created and game charts and special rules matches that could be seen as counter productive business wise. I don't know Tom personally but to me it seems that he wants to share his labour of love with those who appreciate and enjoy it.