What's up with Rush?

[Swarm]

Yeah Jefft you make less sense than a penny.

Anyways sorry the kid deleted his account. Not my intention.

[jefft]

stf said:

Yeah Jefft you make less sense than a penny.

Y'know what, I'm not surprised you didn't understand me, Swarm. Admitting this does clear up some things though.

Out of curiousity though. At what point did I lose you?

Was it the overall length? I think you'll it find on par with most Children's books though. I tried to use that as a benchmark.

Was it because it didn't use any googled images with strange insults underneath that don't actually have a point? I need to remember you can only respond with stuff like that. I understand now. Next time I won't make so many actual arguments using common sense, I'll try to throw in more pretty pictures for you.

Did reading it make you want to actually admit you overreacted and your mind just couldn't handle the fact that you could actually be wrong sometimes?

[jefft]

matt said:

Give this bozo credit, at least he didn't delete his account...oh wait, ****, nevermind.

I gotta say, I find this disappointing from you, Matt. He was a clearly a bozo to you, huh? Thats all you see here?

Even if I go as far as admitting what he said was actually insulting. It only takes simple reading comprehension to say he was completely ignorant of the circumstances and REPEATEDLY tried so say he didn't mean harm.

I'm sure my disappointment means squat to you. I just had to say it though.

[offspring515]

I'm glad nobody overreacted in this thread.

[Trent Lawless]

Wow, I was totally off-base with trying to figure out who Rush was. This is the best Rush art out there!



Glad I finally figured that out. It reminds me too much of Steele Freak, though.

[Matt]

jefft said:

matt said:

Give this bozo credit, at least he didn't delete his account...oh wait, ****, nevermind.

I gotta say, I find this disappointing from you, Matt. He was a clearly a bozo to you, huh? Thats all you see here?

Even if I go as far as admitting what he said was actually insulting. It only takes simple reading comprehension to say he was completely ignorant of the circumstances and REPEATEDLY tried so say he didn't mean harm.

I'm sure my disappointment means squat to you. I just had to say it though.

Yeah, yeah I thought people could clearly see the sarcasm with my post. My bad, but I really don't get the "someone disagrees with me so I have to delete my account" mentality.

[gatekeeper]

Jefft, your attempts at being witty by quoting what we say, then trying to spin it against us didn't work.

You don't have a point do you?

Your initial statement was that you didn't think Rush art was good.

...and not worth 5 bucks.

Nothing you can post will change that.

[jefft]

matt said:

Yeah, yeah I thought people could clearly see the sarcasm with my post. My bad, but I really don't get the "someone disagrees with me so I have to delete my account" mentality.

Eh, its not how I deal with things either. From his point of view: Maybe I'm a new guy (don't know) who asks a simple question, makes controversial (at worst) comments hoping for better product quality clearly ignorant of all the facts in the situation, and gets attacked over and over for this.

Oh, wait. I also made comments in 4 different posts explaining I meant no harm, this wasn't my intention, no insults were intended, etc. Four different times both before, during, and after things started getting tense. Then I offer a sincere apology (that was actually even required) to Neal himself about anything I've said. This was all done by the end of page 3 on 6 page thread.

Well, looking at it that way, I can somewhat understand someone thinking...

1) Ok, I know when I'm not wanted
2) Probably should wash my hands of it and scoot

Again, not the way I'd do it, but sort of understandable.

By the way, if you don't really get the whole 'deleting the account' thing, you'll like this one. I've even heard that we've had guys out there who, get this, actually deleted their account because people were supposedly bothering Tom Filsinger himself and complaining about them alot. As I recall, there was also something about it being best if they just left to work on a COTG project or something. Yeah, that doesn't actually require them turn up the drama level and have their account deleted, but everybody's different I guess.

[jefft]

gatekeeper said:

Jefft, your attempts at being witty by quoting what we say, then trying to spin it against us didn't work.

You don't have a point do you?

Your initial statement was that you didn't think Rush art was good.

...and not worth 5 bucks.

Nothing you can post will change that.

I ask again...show exactly where I said those things. Simply refusing to accept the truth won't make it come true.

Show me. Pretty easy request, y'know.

Oh, here's my initial statement in this thread:

jefft said:

It becomes even more important because the main reason to buy SE cards is for the art alone because stat changes are minimal if anything is even changed at all.

Now since I'm pretty used to you mangling facts and confusing posters by know, I went ahead and provided the second statement I made in the thread, just in case you might be referring to it instead.

jefft said:

See, now because of improved artwork by Werner I become more interested in the character of Rush. Art is important to me to enjoy a character or not.

Ok, as I've pointed this out many, many times now, its getting easier and easier by now.

If something in there is what you're referring to let's try to find it. The best I do here is maybe "improved artwork by Werner". Is that it? I can't be sure since I'm trying to use Payback logic here.

So saying, "improved artwork by Werner" is exactly the same as saying "Neal's artwork wasn't good". Ok. Gotcha. Noted for future reference. I gotta say though thats a harsh (and totally whacko) world you live in, pal. I can't even fathom it myself. Even unimportant stuff, like if you take any COTG character thats ever been drawn more than once. There's one version of all of them you like...and then all the others are BAD. Whoa. Or really meaningful things like, if you have two sisters and think one is better looking, I guess that means the other is a dog, right? Ouch. This is actually kinda neat to think about actually. Here I'll try - Hmmm, Oh, I know. I remember back when I was 21 or 22 or so I was dating these two hot chicks around the same time (give or take a month...long time ago). Anyway, eventually I seriously got it on with both. The second girl really blew my mind. Wow. Definite improvement over the first girl. She was just bad....ERRR, wait. Uhh, actually the second girl was pretty good too. Darnit. I tried but this is just not gonna work for me.

Oh well.

[welsh]

This thread is ridiculous. DMK II and Chewey basically made up an insult to Neal on page 3 and Swarm and Payback (who was agreeing with Jefft on page 2) just went crazy !!

Swarm, why do you even ask Werner to do the art for PM if it doesn't matter ? Because art helps get the card over. An SE is basically alternative art (for the most part). Why can't you preview it to see if you like it ? I can see the problem that people might download without paying, but surely as many people are going to think..."I have no idea what this looks like and I am not getting anything creative like a new character or a booklet, so I won't buy it". It's a legitimate business point.

The original debate was about whether card art should be of some kind of minimum standard or be separately identified as "promoter art". That doesn't seem unfair.

There is a strange "religion" out there that results in any perceived criticism of Tom or his family or family's friends as treason and punishable by death. I know that is because this is a small, close network of people, but if he is ever going to expand his business (and I don't know if this is even part of his plans) he can't have this army of self appointed vigilantes coming down on bootlegs and any criticism. I suspect (but I hope I am wrong) that if Tom did a stacked set and did all the artwork himself (remember Sir Ender ?) and someone dared to criticise it, certain people would hunt them down and threaten them and say "It's only $12 dude, just buy it. You have to, and you can't complain because they're OFFICIAL which means they are automatically worth what you paid, in fact ten times as much, and you are lucky to have been allowed to buy them and in fact they are 100 x better than any bootleg, and I think 2 +3 finishers was a reasonable stat level for Vanity coming out of retirement and I always have".

I don't think it is a coincidence that Tom is never on these boards any more. He needs impartial things like sales figures to see what actually sells (why do you think he put all the Invasion sets up next ? Next highest sellers people) and constructive criticism (like don't use Gustovich again). I really don't think it is unreasonable to put a disclaimer on teh card description that the art was done by an amateur artist. This is a commercially available product, and I remember being very dissappointed when the Revelation storyline and magic cards were out there. Remember the witch hunt for anyone who didn't like the cosmic battle ? They were hounded out of here as heretics (Ringsyde ?) for daring to not like an official story arc, but what was the actual result ? Tom dropped that storyline and all of that stuff was put into aCe leaving GWF to be a wrestling fed, but nobody seems to be saying "thank goodness for that" because they would get accused of being a traitor. And as for the poor schmuck who dared to suggest that a bunch of errors on some of the LOW cards in the early days represented poor quality control that needed fixing...no he was evil and needed burning and was WRONG. Except that in fact he was right, and the sensible people who make the LOW sets have improved their quality noticably without getting all sensitive about it. It's just business.

Do the Wizards of the Coast forums get clogged up like this ? No, they use it and produce better material.

Rant over. I shall await the probable host of PM's threatening me and telling me to go and buy Wrestle Wars (or whatever that rubbish other wrestling dice game was...)

[Swarm]

[DMK II]

welsh said:

This thread is ridiculous. DMK II and Chewey basically made up an insult to Neal on page 3 and Swarm and Payback (who was agreeing with Jefft on page 2) just went crazy !!

Swarm, why do you even ask Werner to do the art for PM if it doesn't matter ? Because art helps get the card over. An SE is basically alternative art (for the most part). Why can't you preview it to see if you like it ? I can see the problem that people might download without paying, but surely as many people are going to think..."I have no idea what this looks like and I am not getting anything creative like a new character or a booklet, so I won't buy it". It's a legitimate business point.

The original debate was about whether card art should be of some kind of minimum standard or be separately identified as "promoter art". That doesn't seem unfair.

There is a strange "religion" out there that results in any perceived criticism of Tom or his family or family's friends as treason and punishable by death. I know that is because this is a small, close network of people, but if he is ever going to expand his business (and I don't know if this is even part of his plans) he can't have this army of self appointed vigilantes coming down on bootlegs and any criticism. I suspect (but I hope I am wrong) that if Tom did a stacked set and did all the artwork himself (remember Sir Ender ?) and someone dared to criticise it, certain people would hunt them down and threaten them and say "It's only $12 dude, just buy it. You have to, and you can't complain because they're OFFICIAL which means they are automatically worth what you paid, in fact ten times as much, and you are lucky to have been allowed to buy them and in fact they are 100 x better than any bootleg, and I think 2 +3 finishers was a reasonable stat level for Vanity coming out of retirement and I always have".

I don't think it is a coincidence that Tom is never on these boards any more. He needs impartial things like sales figures to see what actually sells (why do you think he put all the Invasion sets up next ? Next highest sellers people) and constructive criticism (like don't use Gustovich again). I really don't think it is unreasonable to put a disclaimer on teh card description that the art was done by an amateur artist. This is a commercially available product, and I remember being very dissappointed when the Revelation storyline and magic cards were out there. Remember the witch hunt for anyone who didn't like the cosmic battle ? They were hounded out of here as heretics (Ringsyde ?) for daring to not like an official story arc, but what was the actual result ? Tom dropped that storyline and all of that stuff was put into aCe leaving GWF to be a wrestling fed, but nobody seems to be saying "thank goodness for that" because they would get accused of being a traitor. And as for the poor schmuck who dared to suggest that a bunch of errors on some of the LOW cards in the early days represented poor quality control that needed fixing...no he was evil and needed burning and was WRONG. Except that in fact he was right, and the sensible people who make the LOW sets have improved their quality noticably without getting all sensitive about it. It's just business.

Do the Wizards of the Coast forums get clogged up like this ? No, they use it and produce better material.

Rant over. I shall await the probable host of PM's threatening me and telling me to go and buy Wrestle Wars (or whatever that rubbish other wrestling dice game was...)

100% agree with this post.

BTW, I thought the Cosmic Battle storyline sucked.

[gatekeeper]

jefft said:

gatekeeper said:

Jefft, your attempts at being witty by quoting what we say, then trying to spin it against us didn't work.

You don't have a point do you?

Your initial statement was that you didn't think Rush art was good.

...and not worth 5 bucks.

Nothing you can post will change that.

I ask again...show exactly where I said those things. Simply refusing to accept the truth won't make it come true.

Show me. Pretty easy request, y'know.

Oh, here's my initial statement in this thread:



Now since I'm pretty used to you mangling facts and confusing posters by know, I went ahead and provided the second statement I made in the thread, just in case you might be referring to it instead.

jefft said:

See, now because of improved artwork by Werner I become more interested in the character of Rush. Art is important to me to enjoy a character or not.

Ok, as I've pointed this out many, many times now, its getting easier and easier by now.

If something in there is what you're referring to let's try to find it. The best I do here is maybe "improved artwork by Werner". Is that it? I can't be sure since I'm trying to use Payback logic here.

So saying, "improved artwork by Werner" is exactly the same as saying "Neal's artwork wasn't good". Ok. Gotcha. Noted for future reference. I gotta say though thats a harsh (and totally whacko) world you live in, pal. I can't even fathom it myself. Even unimportant stuff, like if you take any COTG character thats ever been drawn more than once. There's one version of all of them you like...and then all the others are BAD. Whoa. Or really meaningful things like, if you have two sisters and think one is better looking, I guess that means the other is a dog, right? Ouch. This is actually kinda neat to think about actually. Here I'll try - Hmmm, Oh, I know. I remember back when I was 21 or 22 or so I was dating these two hot chicks around the same time (give or take a month...long time ago). Anyway, eventually I seriously got it on with both. The second girl really blew my mind. Wow. Definite improvement over the first girl. She was just bad....ERRR, wait. Uhh, actually the second girl was pretty good too. Darnit. I tried but this is just not gonna work for me.

Oh well.

I don't read posts like this.

You have to sum up things.

I've pointed out what I thought you were wrong in SEVERAL posts.

If you can't understand them, I guess I can't help you any further.

BTW - nobody cries foul when you make fun of Gustovich because:
1) He's a grown man, not a 14 yr old kid.

2) everyone knows his stuff sucks.

[Swarm]

Again, it's 2 dollars people. It's one card. 2 bucks. I think Tom knows a little bit more about marketing than the welsh and DKNY. To make long-drawn out posts going on and on and on and on like a woman about 2 bucks - just - wow.

Look, I spent 200 bucks to print Umagapotamus and I just give him away to people. That's 200 dollars. And people are worried about 2 dollars...?

Sorry If I can't relate.

[Knapik]

There are some damn wieners on this thread.

1) Long, haughty posts suck. State your business.

2) I never looked at Rush's artwork and thought "Wow this sucks." I could only hope to do so well if I tried to draw a character, and Neal was probably stoked Tom wanted to use his art. I think it's part of the charm of the card. I don't think it's wrong to want a 'better' drawing from Werner, but I don't understand personally why it is necessary.

3)

"It's only $12 dude, just buy it. You have to, and you can't complain because they're OFFICIAL which means they are automatically worth what you paid, in fact ten times as much, and you are lucky to have been allowed to buy them and in fact they are 100 x better than any bootleg, and I think 2 +3 finishers was a reasonable stat level for Vanity coming out of retirement and I always have".

I don't know what it's like to be the kid on the playground that gets picked last for kickball, but this sounds like a post from somebody who does all too well.

9/10 bootlegs are done poorly. This is coming from someone who does more bootlegs than just about anyone. Cards are made with no concept of balance and they rarely fit the rules of card creation. These are facts. Tom's cards are almost always better. I'm only drinking the Kool-Aid because it tastes better than anything else.

[Matt]

knapik said:

There are some damn wieners on this thread.

1) Long, haughty posts suck. State your business.

2) I never looked at Rush's artwork and thought "Wow this sucks." I could only hope to do so well if I tried to draw a character, and Neal was probably stoked Tom wanted to use his art. I think it's part of the charm of the card. I don't think it's wrong to want a 'better' drawing from Werner, but I don't understand personally why it is necessary.

3)

"It's only $12 dude, just buy it. You have to, and you can't complain because they're OFFICIAL which means they are automatically worth what you paid, in fact ten times as much, and you are lucky to have been allowed to buy them and in fact they are 100 x better than any bootleg, and I think 2 +3 finishers was a reasonable stat level for Vanity coming out of retirement and I always have".

I don't know what it's like to be the kid on the playground that gets picked last for kickball, but this sounds like a post from somebody who does all too well.

9/10 bootlegs are done poorly. This is coming from someone who does more bootlegs than just about anyone. Cards are made with no concept of balance and they rarely fit the rules of card creation. These are facts. Tom's cards are almost always better. I'm only drinking the Kool-Aid because it tastes better than anything else.

Wow. Great post.

[gatekeeper]

knapik said:

There are some damn wieners on this thread.

1) Long, haughty posts suck. State your business.

2) I never looked at Rush's artwork and thought "Wow this sucks." I could only hope to do so well if I tried to draw a character, and Neal was probably stoked Tom wanted to use his art. I think it's part of the charm of the card. I don't think it's wrong to want a 'better' drawing from Werner, but I don't understand personally why it is necessary.

3)

"It's only $12 dude, just buy it. You have to, and you can't complain because they're OFFICIAL which means they are automatically worth what you paid, in fact ten times as much, and you are lucky to have been allowed to buy them and in fact they are 100 x better than any bootleg, and I think 2 +3 finishers was a reasonable stat level for Vanity coming out of retirement and I always have".

I don't know what it's like to be the kid on the playground that gets picked last for kickball, but this sounds like a post from somebody who does all too well.

9/10 bootlegs are done poorly. This is coming from someone who does more bootlegs than just about anyone. Cards are made with no concept of balance and they rarely fit the rules of card creation. These are facts. Tom's cards are almost always better. I'm only drinking the Kool-Aid because it tastes better than anything else.

Knapik gets it.

[DMK II]

stf said:

Again, it's 2 dollars people. It's one card. 2 bucks. I think Tom knows a little bit more about marketing than the welsh and DKNY. To make long-drawn out posts going on and on and on and on like a woman about 2 bucks - just - wow.

Look, I spent 200 bucks to print Umagapotamus and I just give him away to people. That's 200 dollars. And people are worried about 2 dollars...?

Sorry If I can't relate.

All I said in my post was that I agreed with Welsh as far as the criticising of the game is concerned and that the Cosmic Battle storyline sucked.

I never said anything about marketing.

But since I know that some of us can't read..or at least have a hard time reading anything that is longer then a paragraph long, I'll make it easy you.

[Swarm]

dmk said:

stf said:

Again, it's 2 dollars people. It's one card. 2 bucks. I think Tom knows a little bit more about marketing than the welsh and DKNY. To make long-drawn out posts going on and on and on and on like a woman about 2 bucks - just - wow.

Look, I spent 200 bucks to print Umagapotamus and I just give him away to people. That's 200 dollars. And people are worried about 2 dollars...?

Sorry If I can't relate.

All I said in my post was that I agreed with Welsh as far as the criticising of the game is concerned and that the Cosmic Battle storyline sucked.

I never said anything about marketing.

dmk said:

welsh said:

Swarm, why do you even ask Werner to do the art for PM if it doesn't matter ? Because art helps get the card over. An SE is basically alternative art (for the most part). Why can't you preview it to see if you like it ? I can see the problem that people might download without paying, but surely as many people are going to think..."I have no idea what this looks like and I am not getting anything creative like a new character or a booklet, so I won't buy it". It's a legitimate business point.

100% agree with this post.

[Tournament Master]

Just as an FYI, on the Rush card descriptions, I have updated it from "...created by Neal Nelson." to "created and drawn by promoter Neal Nelson." Its more than fair to call out that the card was not drawn by a regular game artist.

I personally was happy that Neal drew the cards, because it meant alot to him at the time that Tom would print it up. I even bought the Rush T-shirt...which was actually pretty cool.

However, I have seen him since he was in middle school at G-cons and many others haven't, so I can see how some could be bummed about getting a card with art that isn't at the consistent level of many other FG products without knowing the kid personally. Although I think that goes to show just how well the art done by guys like Werner and Darrel truly is.