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Post by bmurderh8s on Feb 15, 2007 19:35:25 GMT -5
It appears that they are trying to prove some kind of point. Although I just don't see the use in it. Are they trying to get others to follow them in the hopes that maybe Tom will see his mistake and remove Rob from any part of the creative process?
If the above is the case then they are actually doing more to hurt the community than help it. A stunt like that could seriously draw the ire of Tom Loyalists and this "cold war" that has been raginging between both boards for a while now could turn into an all out nuclear war.
IMO, I think Tom has done the smart thing and stayed out of this whole mess. Whereas some would like to have him lay the verbal beatdown on Rob and others for their actions in the community, I don't think it would help Tom's case for him to appear to be taking sides. This way he remains a neutral party, and thats the way it should be. Although I am sure some would see his lack of action as taking sides.
And I will say I do find it wrong to continue to run a site dedicated to a game that you have openly said you would not support any longer because you felt that it's owner was in some way promoting Swarm and others' bad behavior.
I openly oppose their view that any of the fighting on the boards has in any way ruined Tom's sales and support for the game. But it's the only arguement they can think of, so they use it. I doubt it to be the case however.
Ok, I've got that off my chest and I'm done.
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Post by swarm on Feb 15, 2007 19:40:05 GMT -5
It appears that they are trying to prove some kind of point. Although I just don't see the use in it. Are they trying to get others to follow them in the hopes that maybe Tom will see his mistake and remove Rob from any part of the creative process? If the above is the case then they are actually doing more to hurt the community than help it. A stunt like that could seriously draw the ire of Tom Loyalists and this "cold war" that has been raginging between both boards for a while now could turn into an all out nuclear war. IMO, I think Tom has done the smart thing and stayed out of this whole mess. Whereas some would like to have him lay the verbal beatdown on Rob and others for their actions in the community, I don't think it would help Tom's case for him to appear to be taking sides. This way he remains a neutral party, and thats the way it should be. Although I am sure some would see his lack of action as taking sides. And I will say I do find it wrong to continue to run a site dedicated to a game that you have openly said you would not support any longer because you felt that it's owner was in some way promoting Swarm and others' bad behavior. I openly oppose their view that any of the fighting on the boards has in any way ruined Tom's sales and support for the game. But it's the only arguement they can think of, so they use it. I doubt it to be the case however. Ok, I've got that off my chest and I'm done. *****
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Post by LWPD on Feb 15, 2007 20:45:18 GMT -5
I remember them scrambling to get Tom to put a link to their page on the official website and being very happy when that happened. Tom's positive response to them was even pasted into a thread somewhere. So he was willing to give them recognition and support their effort. All well and good.
Now you've got at least three of the mod staff (Holland, Tommy, and Trav) who are saying they're not going to support Filsinger Games anymore because of Tom's supposed favoritism of people they don't like. It's a free country and they can think what they want, that's not what I have a problem with.
But if they were real stand-up guys, they'd write to Tom and request that he take down the link to their site, and give their reasons for it. If they're not going to support his product financially anymore, why should he continue to provide an endorsement? If I were him, I'd drop them. Newbies should be directed to a board where they're actually going to get an admin staff who supports the product that the members are talking so much about. Makes me wonder what they're still doing there. This is an excellent point and deserves to be addressed and immediately dealt with. I happen to believe that Holland...who created the junior board...was acting with benign intentions. I also believe he honestly cares for 'the best interests' of Filsinger Games. If it is true that the 'mod staff' of his board...the people who directly influence daily operations ...are in fact creating threads announcing the selling of Tom's game, challenging him and the members of his staff who help to produce COTG content on 'moral levels'...and are in fact creating an environment that is negative toward the promotion of his products by stating they have no intention of buying them...there is a huge problem. It doesn't take a 'group of guys' to request for the Deuce link from Tom's Filsinger Game site to be taken down. It's a very simple process. All it takes is the will of one person...that being the Board Owner...Holland.
LWPD (by all means Holland maintain your board and give people the ability to freely express their ideas and opinions...but out of respect for Tom Filsinger and with the knowledge that your board was granted a direct link from the site he uses to 'run his business' under the belief that doing so would provide a supplement to 'positively promoting' his products...it's time to be honest with him that the exact opposite is happening and the link is a negative asset toward what was initially intended...it's the right thing to do at this point)
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Post by Holland227 on Feb 15, 2007 20:59:03 GMT -5
I remember them scrambling to get Tom to put a link to their page on the official website and being very happy when that happened. Tom's positive response to them was even pasted into a thread somewhere. So he was willing to give them recognition and support their effort. All well and good.
Now you've got at least three of the mod staff (Holland, Tommy, and Trav) who are saying they're not going to support Filsinger Games anymore because of Tom's supposed favoritism of people they don't like. It's a free country and they can think what they want, that's not what I have a problem with.
But if they were real stand-up guys, they'd write to Tom and request that he take down the link to their site, and give their reasons for it. If they're not going to support his product financially anymore, why should he continue to provide an endorsement? If I were him, I'd drop them. Newbies should be directed to a board where they're actually going to get an admin staff who supports the product that the members are talking so much about. Makes me wonder what they're still doing there. This is an excellent point and deserves to be addressed and immediately dealt with. I happen to believe that Holland...who created the junior board...was acting with benign intentions. I also believe he honestly cares for 'the best interests' of Filsinger Games. If it is true that the 'mod staff' of his board...the people who directly influence daily operations ...are in fact creating threads announcing the selling of Tom's game, challenging him and the members of his staff who help to produce COTG content on 'moral levels'...and are in fact creating an environment that is negative toward the promotion of his products by stating they have no intention of buying them...there is a huge problem. It doesn't take a 'group of guys' to request for the Deuce link from Tom's Filsinger Game site to be taken down. It's a very simple process. All it takes is the will of one person...that being the Board Owner...Holland.
LWPD (by all means Holland maintain your board and give people the ability to freely express their ideas and opinions...but out of respect for Tom Filsinger and with the knowledge that your board was granted a direct link from the site he uses to 'run his business' under the belief that doing so would provide a supplement to 'positively promoting' his products...it's time to be honest with him that the exact opposite is happening and the link is a negative asset toward what was initially intended...it's the right thing to do at this point)
I haven't chimed in on this and didn't intend to but I never asked Tom for a link to his site. If he wishes to take it down then he can do so. I personally e-mailed him the link where some of us were talking about not buying his game anymore. I made sure he viewed the thread. I also told him he should do what he thinks is right be it, get involved, stay out or even delete the Deuce link. I sent that e-mail on 2/10 before anything erupted. I was very professional.
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Post by sickman on Feb 15, 2007 21:22:20 GMT -5
To not buy a game anymore because of a difference in opinion is juvenile.
And just for the record.........................
THIS BOARD DOES RULE!!!
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Post by bmurderh8s on Feb 15, 2007 21:23:44 GMT -5
It is my opinion that Holland should take an active part and not sit on his hands and wait for Tom to do it, or for others to begin to complain to Tom about it. But he should only take this route if he feels that the recent events on the Deuce have in some way laid a negative light on Tom's product. If that is the case then he should do something about it himself. These boards are intended to be a place where promoters can support COTG and further promote it's great community. Hence why they are linked to the official site. It's not fair to Tom to allow him to cotninue to link the board, especially when it's Mod's have chosen to publicly boycott his product over things that have nothing to with the quality of the product and excellence of service.
I also personally think that Tom probably gets a little annoyed by recieving e-mails on this whole mess. I'm sure he has better things to do and would rather not have to listen to it. I'm sure he lurks the boards from time to time and sees some of the stuff going on. I doubt he needs to be informed as to the events taking place on the boards.
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Post by swarm on Feb 15, 2007 21:33:31 GMT -5
I personally e-mailed him the link where some of us were talking about not buying his game anymore. I made sure he viewed the thread. I also told him he should do what he thinks is right be it, get involved, stay out or even delete the Deuce link. So if one of the three option you told (not asked, but told) Tom to choose from was to "stay out" then why bother at all? You basically gave him an ultimatum. Do something or we stop buying your game. You basically threatened the creator of this game. Wow.
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Post by Eliath on Feb 15, 2007 21:48:10 GMT -5
Somehow I get the feeling that if Swarm were to apologize to everyone involved, buy them all PM & autograph them all, become a prim and proper human being and an all around overly nice guy...none of it would make a difference. Everyone involved would still dislike Swarm because they have disliked him for so long that it is part of who they are now.
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Post by Holland227 on Feb 15, 2007 21:50:23 GMT -5
I personally e-mailed him the link where some of us were talking about not buying his game anymore. I made sure he viewed the thread. I also told him he should do what he thinks is right be it, get involved, stay out or even delete the Deuce link. So if one of the three option you told (not asked, but told) Tom to choose from was to "stay out" then why bother at all? You basically gave him an ultimatum. Do something or we stop buying your game. You basically threatened the creator of this game. Wow. No Sir, there was never an ultimatum issued to anyone. I was just informing an owner of a product some comments to his stuff. Remember that all people who own something will have people with not so nice things to say and it is in all businesses. The problem is that people who are overly protective get uppity when someone has one bad thing to say. I believe that Tom knows what it is like to be on the end of someone who did not enjoy his product as all business owners go through this. No way did I use an ultimatum. That is you putting a twist on a simple e-mail.
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Post by bmurderh8s on Feb 15, 2007 22:00:29 GMT -5
This whole situation hasn't stemmed from a promoter being unhappy with the product. It all stems from promoters being unhappy over a person on a discussion board that is fan run. And deciding to boycott the game over said person.
In that sense e-mailing Tom is really a waste of his time. if it were an issue over getting an edition late, or feeling that the games you recieved were subpar, then you have a point. You have the right to let the man know that you were unhappy with the product and/or service. That way he can make it better and improve his product. But this is completely different.
Get my point?! people aren';t boycotting the game because it's crappy or the service sucks, they are boycotting it over a person who they don't like. Thats why all of this comes off as a little ridiculous.
Tom should stay out of this mess to be honest. And probably should tell you guys to just keep it to yourselves or let it go because you're taking things too personal/serious.
Once again, this board rocks.
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Post by Joe on Feb 15, 2007 22:00:33 GMT -5
Somehow I get the feeling that if Swarm were to apologize to everyone involved, buy them all PM & autograph them all, become a prim and proper human being and an all around overly nice guy...none of it would make a difference. Everyone involved would still dislike Swarm because they have disliked him for so long that it is part of who they are now. Damn right, Eliath. Don't get it twisted, all of this goes back to Rob being critical of a wrestling federation that some of those guys liked. That's it. A second-rate wrestling promotion. Anyone can say anything, but I, and others, have been around since the beginning, and that is what all this goes back to. Ask one of them how it all started. He relentlessly laid it on about TNA. Big fucking deal. I have been a Shawn Michaels fan for longer than TNA has been in business, and Swarm hates HBK. Hell, I even do my trivia contest entrance to his music. If I used the same logic as the people who can't stand him, Swarm and I would have fell out a long time ago. Put that in perspective: I would have lost a friend because I like Shawn Michaels and he does not. Seriously, somebody PM those guys and ask them what their individual beef with Swarm started over. If they are honest, they will say that it all goes back to him having a difference of opinion and actually expressing it (something that is apparently very frowned upon by Deuce mods) about a wrestling promotion. Hell, I know Trav's started with him because Rob called Jerry Lawler a washed-up old fool and said Memphis wrestling sucked. Big deal. I grew up watching the stuff, too, and I'll be the first to tell you that on any given day, Memphis wrestling could produce some of the stupidest crap that the industry has ever seen. It could also be very good, but in the end, who really gives much a damn? I'm also glad that Swarm pointed out what he said in his last thread. It did sound as if Holland was calling Tom out on the carpet and basically ordering him to do something about this whole mess. I wonder if the Parker brothers or Milton Bradley ever had to deal with this stuff?
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Post by sickman on Feb 15, 2007 22:25:53 GMT -5
Somehow I get the feeling that if Swarm were to apologize to everyone involved, buy them all PM & autograph them all, become a prim and proper human being and an all around overly nice guy...none of it would make a difference. Everyone involved would still dislike Swarm because they have disliked him for so long that it is part of who they are now. Ehh, unfortunately some people have nothing better to do than complain about something. Excellant post, but even if Swarm did this; I'm sure there would be some other form of drama. I don't know who wrote it, but I agree with what he said. I haven't always agreed with everything that some have said......but if I didn't have anything resonable to add to the discussion; I just wouldn't respond. And honestly most of the bickering that has been done all starts with someone not liking what someone else has to say and then calling them out on it. Instead of discussing it..........which last I checked was the main purpose of a "discussion board".
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Post by Mark 138 on Feb 15, 2007 22:39:22 GMT -5
This is kind of lengthy, but there is a point (I hope). First, if you step back and look at this from a fresh perspective, this whole thing is really weird and absurd. But anyway.... I wonder if the Parker brothers or Milton Bradley ever had to deal with this stuff? Filsinger Games is the very definition of a mom and pop business. And that's part of why these problems occur and get so personal. Tom has been incredibly active in communicating with his fans and giving customers a sense of "Tom as our friend", not the owner and creator of a game we all like and buy. It's much the same thing Stan Lee did way back in the early days of Marvel. He makes people feel like he's one of us, and for over 20 years, it's worked. Now "our good buddy Tom" has gone absentee from his community. He rarely updates the web site and when he does most of it is very business-like, as opposed to the friendly, casual tone of before. He no longer contributes to the online community and a lot of people don't know how to respond to this. It almost looks like they feel abandoned. In some ways it looks like they're looking for a surrogate spokesman for COTG and looking way in the wrong direction. If it were Parker Brothers or MB, they'd never have put a face to a company name in the first place. Everything would've been business from the get-go and no one would feel as personally about the product. They also wouldn't have been as passionate about what is, at it's core, a very simple game that easily could've been one and done back in '86 like the dozens of games in the genre that have come and gone since. He hit on a formula that works. NOW, add to the fact that the spokesman is gone the fact that he chose to allow one of his game communities most vocal members a part of a game edition that celebrates the "promoter"/fans of the game. The people this guy has offended or made mad for whatever reason now feel doubly slighted by Tom, and this is how they've chosen to show it. I'd also imagine one or two around here are also kind of jealous deep down that they weren't the one picked, and you can see another problem. I've been happier with this board by just making it what I want it to be. I post where I like and just keep it casual. If someone is being an @$$ about something, what does that do to me personally? How will it effect my real life, out there beyond the screen? When you put it in perspective it makes it easier to just not respond or turn the damn internet off for a while and spend time with real people.
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Post by sickman on Feb 15, 2007 22:54:40 GMT -5
Interesting perspective and I see where you come from.
Sometimes the "good buddy" has a lot on his plate and can't do the things he used to do.
The people that were offended......grow the heck up and go out once in awhile. I have no issues with anyone but when you look at it, most of the serious bickering that hurts peoples feelings is juvenile. Again, the bickering starts when someone says something bad about something that someone else likes and that person just doesn't know how to handle it.
As far as the jealousy thing goes. Maybe some people are jealous in a certain way but they have no need to. Everyone is here for the common goal which is to have fun with a game that most started playing 20 years ago.
The sad part is that most of the people that were offended by a discussion board are probably the same people that whine and cry every day of their life and are never satisfied. Need to learn to brush things off and not get so offended all the time.
Not trying to knock your perspective but these are just my opinions.
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Post by Joe on Feb 15, 2007 22:55:55 GMT -5
This is kind of lengthy, but there is a point (I hope). First, if you step back and look at this from a fresh perspective, this whole thing is really weird and absurd. But anyway.... I wonder if the Parker brothers or Milton Bradley ever had to deal with this stuff? Filsinger Games is the very definition of a mom and pop business. And that's part of why these problems occur and get so personal. Tom has been incredibly active in communicating with his fans and giving customers a sense of "Tom as our friend", not the owner and creator of a game we all like and buy. It's much the same thing Stan Lee did way back in the early days of Marvel. He makes people feel like he's one of us, and for over 20 years, it's worked. Now "our good buddy Tom" has gone absentee from his community. He rarely updates the web site and when he does most of it is very business-like, as opposed to the friendly, casual tone of before. He no longer contributes to the online community and a lot of people don't know how to respond to this. It almost looks like they feel abandoned. In some ways it looks like they're looking for a surrogate spokesman for COTG and looking way in the wrong direction. If it were Parker Brothers or MB, they'd never have put a face to a company name in the first place. Everything would've been business from the get-go and no one would feel as personally about the product. They also wouldn't have been as passionate about what is, at it's core, a very simple game that easily could've been one and done back in '86 like the dozens of games in the genre that have come and gone since. He hit on a formula that works. NOW, add to the fact that the spokesman is gone the fact that he chose to allow one of his game communities most vocal members a part of a game edition that celebrates the "promoter"/fans of the game. The people this guy has offended or made mad for whatever reason now feel doubly slighted by Tom, and this is how they've chosen to show it. I'd also imagine one or two around here are also kind of jealous deep down that they weren't the one picked, and you can see another problem. I've been happier with this board by just making it what I want it to be. I post where I like and just keep it casual. If someone is being an butt about something, what does that do to me personally? How will it effect my real life, out there beyond the screen? When you put it in perspective it makes it easier to just not respond or turn the damn internet off for a while and spend time with real people. Interesting post, Mark. I have always thought that the people who get so bent out of shape over comments they read here obviously don't have enough of a life outside of the Internet. I also agree that jealousy is a great part of what fuels the anger of the few people. I don't necessarily agree that Tom has gone absentee from the community, but it was stated last summer that, for a multitude of reasons, Tom would be unable to spend as much time participating on the discussion board. That said, he has still updated the COTG website with some regularity, which is really the only site that has needed updating. As far as LOW goes, if a new edition is not being released, there really is little to update.
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Post by Mark 138 on Feb 15, 2007 23:00:27 GMT -5
Interesting perspective and I see where you come from. Sometimes the "good buddy" has a lot on his plate and can't do the things he used to do. ... Not trying to knock your perspective but these are just my opinions. I just want to clarify that I totally understand why a man with a full-time career, a ton of side projects, and a family doesn't spend as much time with his customers as he used to. I'm not casting a negitive light on the man, just stating the case as I see it. And I didn't see anything knocking what I wrote at all.
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Post by Matt on Feb 15, 2007 23:08:41 GMT -5
Interesting perspective and I see where you come from. Sometimes the "good buddy" has a lot on his plate and can't do the things he used to do. The people that were offended......grow the heck up and go out once in awhile. I have no issues with anyone but when you look at it, most of the serious bickering that hurts peoples feelings is juvenile. Again, the bickering starts when someone says something bad about something that someone else likes and that person just doesn't know how to handle it. As far as the jealousy thing goes. Maybe some people are jealous in a certain way but they have no need to. Everyone is here for the common goal which is to have fun with a game that most started playing 20 years ago. The sad part is that most of the people that were offended by a discussion board are probably the same people that whine and cry every day of their life and are never satisfied. Need to learn to brush things off and not get so offended all the time. Not trying to knock your perspective but these are just my opinions. Amen. This whole "I won't buy Tom's stuff" nonsense totally reeks with jealousy and immaturity, as much as the "I hate Swarm because that defines my personality" nonsense results from jealousy and insecurity.
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Post by MikeMcKinney on Feb 15, 2007 23:13:20 GMT -5
SOLID post Mark...real SOLID!
tkx again, the dice don't lie!
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Post by Eliath on Feb 15, 2007 23:28:10 GMT -5
Being one of the new guys here I find something interesting. Did anyone ever notice, outside of Swarm, that most people find the very idea of leaving a game because of another person is just silly?
Its like saying that as long as Swarm is breathing I refuse to take another breath because I don't want to breathe anything he has partaken of. Just silly.
I understand that they are mad at Swarm. Put aside the fact that they have taken something said over the internet outside of the internet and let it affect their real lives and where does that leave you? It has been said in this thread several times, nothing that Swarm says or does on here should affect your real life. He's just a guy sitting behind a screen somewhere in Detroit, living his life and having his own opinions...just like every single one of us. Are you mad at him because he is outspoken or because he just doesn't agree with you? You don't have to like him but you do have to put up with him. If he parodies you in his fed, feel honored and laugh. If he says something you don't like, ignore it and move on. Don't hold a grudge and take it into your real life...lets have a little separation here. REAL LIFE is not the INTERNET...if it is..sorry. Everyone needs to just let go of whatever has happened in the past. It doesn't do you any good today and it won't do you any good tomorrow. Think about that.
*hops down off soapbox and scoots it to someone else*
EDIT: If you're burned out with CotG, just say: "I'm burned out" Don't say: "I'm never going to buy another thing that Filsinger Games puts out because Swarm made me mad last month." Do you realize how idiotic this sounds? If it was Tom that had done the things that Swarm has done, you would have a reason to never support Filsinger Games again...and you know what, I would probably join you in your exodus. But this? Come on. Look at what you are saying again: "I'm never going to buy another thing that Filsinger Games puts out because Swarm made me mad last month." *shakes head* Okay, I'm done.
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Post by sickman on Feb 15, 2007 23:36:16 GMT -5
Being one of the new guys here I find something interesting. Did anyone ever notice, outside of Swarm, that most people find the very idea of leaving a game because of another person is just silly? Its like saying that as long as Swarm is breathing I refuse to take another breath because I don't want to breathe anything he has partaken of. Just silly. I understand that they are mad at Swarm. Put aside the fact that they have taken something said over the internet outside of the internet and let it affect their real lives and where does that leave you? It has been said in this thread several times, nothing that Swarm says or does on here should affect your real life. He's just a guy sitting behind a screen somewhere in Detroit, living his life and having his own opinions...just like every single one of us. Are you mad at him because he is outspoken or because he just doesn't agree with you? You don't have to like him but you do have to put up with him. If he parodies you in his fed, feel honored and laugh. If he says something you don't like, ignore it and move on. Don't hold a grudge and take it into your real life...lets have a little separation here. REAL LIFE is not the INTERNET...if it is..sorry. Everyone needs to just let go of whatever has happened in the past. It doesn't do you any good today and it won't do you any good tomorrow. Think about that. *hops down off soapbox and scoots it to someone else* EDIT: If you're burned out with CotG, just say: "I'm burned out" Don't say: "I'm never going to buy another thing that Filsinger Games puts out because Swarm made me mad last month." Do you realize how idiotic this sounds? If it was Tom that had done the things that Swarm has done, you would have a reason to never support Filsinger Games again...and you know what, I would probably join you in your exodus. But this? Come on. Look at what you are saying again: "I'm never going to buy another thing that Filsinger Games puts out because Swarm made me mad last month." *shakes head* Okay, I'm done. QFT
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