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Post by Hegemony on Mar 13, 2007 20:32:04 GMT -5
Samoa Joe's already worked jobber matches for VKM a few years ago. Most of them were just 'dark' enhancement sprints...the one below is a rare 4 minute squash that aired on one of the B Shows. When SJ failed his try out with the WWE the agents were brutally honest with him about his prospects as a money talent...and back then he looked a lot slimmer and more fit than he does now. Always keep this in mind whenever assessing his public comments about 'not wanting' to go to WWE. Essa Rios vs Samoa Joe 3/3/01 This backs up the point that I have made numerous times. If Samoa Joe really had no desire to work for WWE (other than possibly AJ Styles' logic of, "If they want me now at one price, give me a couple years to become a bigger star while my wife finishes college, and they will pay me even more money then"), then why would he have ever worked out for them in the first place? I suggest you think about the wrestling landscape at the time of this event in 2001. ROH and TNA were still a year away from existence, and these are the two promotions that have provided Joe with the most consistent work he has had in the industry. In addition, he had been wrestling a short time when this occurred, which could have also played into his decision to try out for the WWE. Main point, the Samoa Joe of six years ago may not be the same one of today, and the one of today is the one that has reportedly turned down the WWE around a year ago when they signed CM Punk and were supposedly in negotiations with Joe as well. Most reports I have read indicate that these negotiations were a ploy to get more money from TNA in the first place. Further, the wrestling industry has changed significantly from 2001, so perhaps these changes have played a role in Joe's apparent decision. And they will undoubtedly change considerably in the coming years, so who knows how this man's career will pan out in the long run. He has many detractors and many big fans, including many who consistently hail him as being one of the better workers in the current wrestling landscape. His work for WWF in 2001 is not an indication, however, that Joe is dying to get into WWE since there are options for him outside of that particular company currently. However, with the way he has been presented in TNA, in addition to TNA's insistence that he no longer take bookings with ROH (a company he freely admits he loves working for), Joe may regret his decision to sign with TNA in the long run. And who knows how much longer TNA will even be around? |
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Post by Hegemony on Mar 13, 2007 20:44:53 GMT -5
Joe vs Cage seemed to be the only match worth anything but really, it seems like they're never going to pull the trigger on a Joe title reign. From a creative standpoint...after a lengthy mega push, an undefeated streak, multiple X Division title reigns and a considerable amount of television time...'as is' the 'Samoan Submission Machine/Joe's Gonna Kill You' SJ has equaled little in the way of ratings increases or PPV Buys (other than the initial Angle debut). I doubt his main event title match with Christian last night was a home run either. His failure to translate hasn't been for lack of opportunity. For the past year he's been given more air and mic time than just about anyone on the show. He's talented in the ring and has a niche following...but it's meant nothing to the bottom line. It's easy to just blame the booking...but that's ultimately a cop out. The writing will always be what it is...a true talent finds a way to make it work....and Joe just hasn't been a very good return on investment. Given his background I seriously doubt Vince Russo sees much in him. When Fat Joe came out last night he had him do a 'Samoan Dance' entrance. Now that VR is starting to job him out more frequently...don't be shocked to see him completely 'repackaged'....either as more of an 'ethnic' Umaga type Samoan...or maybe even Rikishi style (with dancing, the stink face, etc.) The change can't be any worse from a 'results' standpoint than what he already is.
LWPD (a few weeks back during a Kevin Nash segment they showed a muscular 'cut' Samoa Joe Doll...if TNA marketing was truly 'proud' of him...then why not truly and honestly represent his pear shaped body type?)
Very interesting that you assume his "dance routine" indicates an imminent repackaging considering he did a very similar routine prior to his match with Jushin Liger early in his run in TNA. In addition, it is a bit presumptuous to assume his action figure having exaggerated musculature is indicative of some "shame" from TNA, especially considering the exaggerated appearance of many WWF/E action figures through the years. Specifically, I remember in 98/99 the WWF released a line of bendable action figures (I forget the exact product line's name) where the characters were so ridiculously muscular that they barely resembled human form. Did this line also indicate a level of shame for characters such as Steve Austin, The Rock, and Triple H? In terms of Joe's lack of ratings success, it is a bit premature to blame Joe for the failings of an entire brand of professional wrestling. No "star" in TNA has been a consistent factor in increasing ratings, including Sting, Angle, Joe, Styles, Jarrett, Steiner, etc. To place the blame in the lap of Samoa Joe excuses all of the glaring mistakes TNA has made in increasing their brand awareness. We could discuss the use of mainstream celebrities to "elevate" mid-card talent (Lance Hoyt), the rushed matches on their weekly telecasts (which encourage no casual fan to buy PPVs and actually discourage more hardcore fans due to the lack of match quality), the horrendous booking (such as inane gimmicks and nonsensical decisions over wins and losses (Tomko over the #1 contender)), and the parity booking strategy where supposed stars never lose but have multiple title reigns or win matches without being made to look strong in doing so. These problems provide the context in which fans make decisions to purchase TNA shows or watch the weekly programs, and it is imperative that this context is acknowledged when determining the successes and failures of a wrestling brand. You can like or not like Joe, and certainly he has not been such a huge star that TNA is suddenly in a position to challenge the dominance of WWE, but to say that this status is the fault of one man is ignoring the circumstances that define the entirety of the TNA product. I know of very many wrestling fans personally that have made conscious decisions to avoid TNA despite their feelings for a particular talent due to the poor quality of the program itself. |
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Post by swarm on Mar 13, 2007 20:45:28 GMT -5
Main point, the Samoa Joe of six years ago may not be the same one of today,.. LWPD already pointed out how Joe is so much fatter now than he was then we know. |
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Post by BrianU on Mar 13, 2007 20:49:41 GMT -5
And yet Umaga gets a free pass from you Swarm despite his saggy man boobs.
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Post by swarm on Mar 13, 2007 22:01:02 GMT -5
Nice try Brian Underpants.
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Post by LWPD on Mar 14, 2007 4:25:22 GMT -5
Ironically experience has taught me that 'very interesting' is an open that seldom comes from someone who is truly 'very interested' in productively exchanging ideas with an open active mind. Let's see what we have... Had you read more carefully you'd see that I never 'assumed' that a change was 'imminent'...nowhere did I say that and you're the only one participating on this thread that misunderstood. BTW...the 'that you assume' line followed by a misinterpretation is a very off putting combo. Which is something I would know fairly well since I am the one who posted said dance routine right here on this very forum when it happened.  BTW it's Liger (as in a Lion/Tiger hybrid). The muscular appearance of the Fat Joe doll is indicative of the fact that the company chose not to represent his physical appearance accurately...which is precisely what I said. What WWE does with the presentation of similar merchandise is irrelevant to what was being addressed. What's recurring is your tendency to create 'ghost points' to argue against as if you are having an interactive dialog. Pointing out that Samoa Joe is not a ratings or PPV Buy success is not the equivalent of blaming him 'for the failings of an entire brand of professional wrestling'. It's not even close. While I admire your enthusiasm...it came at the expense of attaining a comprehensive understanding of the very post you were responding to and 'arguing against'. It's also worth noting that using terms such as 'a bit presumptuous' and 'a bit premature' further weaken the appeal of your post. Such terms come off as condescending...which in the long run hurts the effectiveness of even a strong argument because it makes 'the poster as an individual' come off as unattractive to invest time reading. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was 'out of character' and that for whatever reason you just had a whack posting effort. Please don't prove me wrong....I'd hate to have to add you to my 'ignore list'.
LWPD (sometimes posters become very emotional about a topic and post for no other reason than to 'argue'...even when what they are 'arguing against' isn't at issue outside of their imaginations...at times we can all have such moments)
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Post by Hegemony on Mar 14, 2007 10:04:25 GMT -5
Ironically experience has taught me that 'very interesting' is an open that seldom comes from someone who is truly 'very interested' in productively exchanging ideas with an open active mind. Let's see what we have... Had you read more carefully you'd see that I never 'assumed' that a change was 'imminent'...nowhere did I say that and you're the only one participating on this thread that misunderstood. BTW...the 'that you assume' line followed by a misinterpretation is a very off putting combo. Which is something I would know fairly well since I am the one who posted said dance routine right here on this very forum when it happened. BTW it's Liger (as in a Lion/Tiger hybrid). The muscular appearance of the Fat Joe doll is indicative of the fact that the company chose not to represent his physical appearance accurately...which is precisely what I said. What WWE does with the presentation of similar merchandise is irrelevant to what was being addressed. What's recurring is your tendency to create 'ghost points' to argue against as if you are having an interactive dialog. Pointing out that Samoa Joe is not a ratings or PPV Buy success is not the equivalent of blaming him 'for the failings of an entire brand of professional wrestling'. It's not even close. While I admire your enthusiasm...it came at the expense of attaining a comprehensive understanding of the very post you were responding to and 'arguing against'. It's also worth noting that using terms such as 'a bit presumptuous' and 'a bit premature' further weaken the appeal of your post. Such terms come off as condescending...which in the long run hurts the effectiveness of even a strong argument because it makes 'the poster as an individual' come off as unattractive to invest time reading. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was 'out of character' and that for whatever reason you just had a whack posting effort. Please don't prove me wrong....I'd hate to have to add you to my 'ignore list'.
LWPD (sometimes posters become very emotional about a topic and post for no other reason than to 'argue'...even when what they are 'arguing against' isn't at issue outside of their imaginations...at times we can all have such moments) I would suggest that it is your condescending tone that is evident in this thread, LWPD, despite my reputation on these boards to the contrary. In terms of the original topic, you are the one criticizing "Fat Joe" when he came out at the PPV, you are the one that brought up a "repackaging" signified by his dance routine and then insinuated that I am putting words in your mouth by claiming the change was imminent. I believe the line was something like "Don't be surprised to see ..." making yourself some sort of authority figure on the future of a particular character you apparently have little regard for. You also imply that there is an unhappiness towards Joe from TNA management depsite evidence to the contrary (making him an exclusive property, putting him in a series against their top acquisition, etc.) Let's just say that in my line of work, the type of correlations you are throwing around would get some one fired very quickly. Or at least ostracized. The action figure debate you immediately shut down as unimportant to your point, which I disagree with but if you choose to ignore it than there is little to discuss further. Let's just say that I see the importance of said comparison, and you don't, and leave it at that. Others can make up their own minds if they choose. You conclude your post with the threat of "ignoring" me and argue that I am inventing statements. Perhaps I am a bit "snarky" in my character, but I believe we have a pot-kettle situation here, and I suggest that you read your first post again. And perhaps your second post about Joe in 2001. And if all of these posts are as equally offputting, maybe you will have to be "ignored" as well. See, I can be childish about this as well. Edit - For the record I did find the post interesting, but mostly for its air of objectivity that you are very skilled at producing, which often masks your own biases towards particular topics. This post very much betrayed those biases and revealed a very condescending attitude that made enormous causal leaps that are unfounded in any qualitative analysis. This is a red flag in my world and therefore I found it very interesting. |
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Post by Splattercat on Mar 14, 2007 10:39:02 GMT -5
Okay, all I'm going to say about this entire conversation and that match....They were talking about the XFL in the commentary...Do you REALLY think it was a nice time to be in the WWF..?
EDIT: Before I get my face ripped off, what I mean is, he's not an established star, in fact, he'd only been a wrestler for 15 months...He was in UPW and then went to Japan in that time...Did you ever think that maybe after being in Japan, he didn't like the WWE jobber treatment..? That maybe Ring of Honor was a better environment for him..?
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Post by Hegemony on Mar 14, 2007 10:44:09 GMT -5
Okay, all I'm going to say about this entire conversation and that match....They were talking about the XFL in the commentary...Do you REALLY think it was a nice time to be in the WWF..? ECW and WCW were closing down!!! And WWF was about to put on WrestleMania X-7 and was coming off of an early 2001 that featured tremendous wrestling matches (Jericho-Benoit, Austin-TripleH, Rock-Angle, etc.) Do you really think that early 2001 was NOT a good time to be in WWE? |
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Post by Splattercat on Mar 14, 2007 10:48:58 GMT -5
Alright then, look at it like this: He's not an established star, in fact, he'd only been a wrestler for 15 months...He was in UPW and then went to Japan in that time...Did you ever think that maybe after being in Japan, he didn't like the WWE jobber treatment..? That maybe Ring of Honor was a better environment for him..?
Plus, you're right, ECW and WCW were closing down...What are the odds their entire rosters aren't going to get picked clean before they start developing a brand new Rookie..?
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Post by Hegemony on Mar 14, 2007 10:53:36 GMT -5
Alright then, look at it like this: He's not an established star, in fact, he'd only been a wrestler for 15 months...He was in UPW and then went to Japan in that time...Did you ever think that maybe after being in Japan, he didn't like the WWE jobber treatment..? That maybe Ring of Honor was a better environment for him..? Plus, you're right, ECW and WCW were closing down...What are the odds their entire rosters aren't going to get picked clean before they start developing a brand new Rookie..? I think now we are arguing the same thing. My point was that in 2001 he may have really wanted to get into the WWF - for the reasons outlined above. But in 2006 when he was negotiating with TNA he may not have felt WWE was the best place for him. The difference is an eternity in terms of 2001-2007. A lot has changed in the WWF/E and the wrestling industry as a whole. But in 2001, I think the WWF was on a tremendous roll. |
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Post by Splattercat on Mar 14, 2007 10:55:06 GMT -5
Maybe Joe's good buddy John Cena could shed some light on this..... |
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Post by Hegemony on Mar 14, 2007 10:56:47 GMT -5
Maybe Joe's good buddy John Cena could shed some light on this..... Yes they are friends but I am not following you... What could he shed light on? |
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Post by Splattercat on Mar 14, 2007 11:01:35 GMT -5
Alright then, look at it like this: He's not an established star, in fact, he'd only been a wrestler for 15 months...He was in UPW and then went to Japan in that time...Did you ever think that maybe after being in Japan, he didn't like the WWE jobber treatment..? That maybe Ring of Honor was a better environment for him..? Plus, you're right, ECW and WCW were closing down...What are the odds their entire rosters aren't going to get picked clean before they start developing a brand new Rookie..? I think now we are arguing the same thing. My point was that in 2001 he may have really wanted to get into the WWF - for the reasons outlined above. But in 2006 when he was negotiating with TNA he may not have felt WWE was the best place for him. The difference is an eternity in terms of 2001-2007. A lot has changed in the WWF/E and the wrestling industry as a whole. But in 2001, I think the WWF was on a tremendous roll. They were...Sucking up rosters of guys that had been pro for years, that everyone on earth knew in WCW...It was a couple years and a failed Invasion Storyline before they started making fresh new talent... |
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Post by BDS on Mar 14, 2007 11:02:38 GMT -5
I've been waiting for this moment for twenty-four hours and eight minutes. Thank you, Chris Ingersoll ...  |
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Post by Splattercat on Mar 14, 2007 11:20:37 GMT -5
..... Are you saying a Cat is going to kill this thread..? Jerk....  |
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welsh
Midcarder
Born in the USA...
Posts: 94
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Post by welsh on Mar 14, 2007 18:06:32 GMT -5
I am making this post because I was absolutely amazed at the reply made by LWPD to Hegemony. I refer of course to the one with the heavy quoting.
Paint had made a very good post about how TNA buy rates were not up during the "Joe era"...if you can call it that since he hasn't had the belt. He then appeared (to me) to speculate on the future direction for Joe, and that his push may have disappeared.
Hegemony then made a very good reply, saying that he thought that the failing was TNA's booking team and disagreeing with a couple of the other points. He even accepted that Joe might not be to everyone's taste, but asserted that the failing was not entirely Joe's.
Paint then posted a reply that astounded me. Hegemony has already responded himself, and I am not trying to defend someone who can look after themselves, but it upset me that Swarm can engage in some banter and get banned, but LWPD can post this and nobody cares.
Right…
“Ironically experience has taught me that 'very interesting' is an open that seldom comes from someone who is truly 'very interested' in productively exchanging ideas with an open active mind. Let's see what we have...”
What exactly does this mean? It doesn’t actually make a point, it is just a patronising opening that sets the tone of the entire response. It is an attempt to make the reader believe that Hegemony is not interested in productively exchanging ideas, thus prejudicing them against him in the upcoming debate. It is a transparent attempt at character assassination. Why say it at all ? My personal belief is that LWPD does not understand that most people on this board post quickly and in a conversational manner, using phrases they would use in speech. There is absolutely nothing to read into the use of the word “interesting”, except from someone who does not post in this manner, and makes no allowance for those who do.
We continue…
“Had you read more carefully you'd see that I never 'assumed' that a change was 'imminent'...nowhere did I say that and you're the only one participating on this thread that misunderstood. BTW...the 'that you assume' line followed by a misinterpretation is a very off putting combo.”
LWPD wrote quite clearly in his original post that
“When Fat Joe came out last night he had him do a 'Samoan Dance' entrance. Now that VR is starting to job him out more frequently...don't be shocked to see him completely 'repackaged'....either as more of an 'ethnic' Umaga type Samoan...or maybe even Rikishi style (with dancing, the stink face, etc.)”
By making that statement it is clear that he either believes a change is imminent for Joe or he has written an absolutely pointless statement that is just plain confusing. For someone who writes as clearly and thinks as carefully about every post as LWPD, it is ridiculous to assume from that post that they don’t believe that it is likely or worth writing. Let me try…”don’t be shocked if Undertaker wins at Wrestlemania”. Is it unreasonable to read into that that I think Undertaker will win ? Possibly, as I don’t actually use those words, but otherwise what is the point in saying it. I might as well have said “there may be a winner in the Undertaker match, or it may be a draw”. I think we as a community are trying to share opinions, and LWPD carefully phrases statements so that nothing has actually been said. Why can he not actually stand behind something which may be proved wrong in the future? There is no shame, it is just speculation…don’t be afraid of it. It is also an off putting combo to make inferences and then weasel out of it in a playground fashion. Hegemony was not the only person on the thread who misunderstood, he was the only one who did understand.
Next…
“Which is something I would know fairly well since I am the one who posted said dance routine right here on this very forum when it happened. BTW it's Liger (as in a Lion/Tiger hybrid).”
Yes, you would know, so why did you make no mention of this when you originally posted, and then use it as a weapon to gain a measure of petty intellectual superiority over the person you are responding to ? It makes no sense, and there has been no rebuttal of the point at all. As someone whose principal form of debate appears to be to find facts that suit and ignore those that don’t to create the illusion that you are correct whereas everyone else merely has “an opinion” and is interpreting the facts in the wrong way, it must have been embarrassing to have that one thrown at you, hence the incredibly juvenile attempt to make Hegemony look silly. The incorrect spelling does nothing to lessen the strength of the argument. BTW, it’s Samoa Joe (as in the island).
“The muscular appearance of the Fat Joe doll is indicative of the fact that the company chose not to represent his physical appearance accurately...which is precisely what I said. What WWE does with the presentation of similar merchandise is irrelevant to what was being addressed.”
It is not irrelevant, it is incredibly pertinent, and it completely invalidates your cute little aside at the bottom of your post. Most wrestling toys since the attitude era have been caricatures of the human form. This is therefore accepted in the toy industry as what their market wants and so the TNA and WWE toys look nothing like their counterparts. This demonstrates that TNA’s choice of body shape was completely independent of their faith in him. The WWE had massive confidence in the Rock but his toys’ body shapes did not match his. WWE had faith in him, and chose to show that by giving him a push rather than by creating a realistic toy. It is obviously ridiculous to show your confidence in someone by making their toy pear shaped, you show you confidence in them by making and marketing the toy in the first place.
“What's recurring is your tendency to create 'ghost points' to argue against as if you are having an interactive dialog. Pointing out that Samoa Joe is not a ratings or PPV Buy success is not the equivalent of blaming him 'for the failings of an entire brand of professional wrestling'. It's not even close.”
But it is exactly that. You said they had given him a massive push, that poor writing didn’t matter and that, and this is key, “SJ has equaled little in the way of ratings increases or PPV Buys”. You have linked them, and presented no other possible reasons for the low buy rates. How do you measure Joe as buy rate success ? Easy…did buy rates go up when he was in the top matches ? No they did not. Would things have been different if his mega push had included the title ? If other top level story lines had supported the product or that they didn’t have a stupid 6-sided ring ? Maybe they would, in which case Joe wasn’t a buy rate failure, everything else was. The only way to justify your blanket statement and subsequent brush off of the riposte would be to get a time machine and do the same storyline but with Rhyno or someone else instead of Joe. We can’t do that so we have to guess.
What is actually recurring is your insistence on picking the exact words used and twisting them to make your poor fellow poster seem foolish without adding anything yourself to the debate. You said Joe was responsible for low buy rates. Hegemony disagreed and thought it was the booking. That is the substance of the points, not the exact words, but of course if you focus on the exact words you can never be caught out. If you go into a restaurant and ask for some water, and the waiter brings you a glass of water, do you get angry because they brought a glass as well ? That is a ridiculous example, but no more ridiculous as the argument employed in the response to Hegemony’s post.
Finally…
“While I admire your enthusiasm...it came at the expense of attaining a comprehensive understanding of the very post you were responding to and 'arguing against'. It's also worth noting that using terms such as 'a bit presumptuous' and 'a bit premature' further weaken the appeal of your post. Such terms come off as condescending...which in the long run hurts the effectiveness of even a strong argument because it makes 'the poster as an individual' come off as unattractive to invest time reading.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was 'out of character' and that for whatever reason you just had a whack posting effort. Please don't prove me wrong....I'd hate to have to add you to my 'ignore list'.”
This is without a doubt the most condescending thing I have ever read on these boards. You are attempting to portray yourself as a wise old master that every other poster aspires to be like, and that with time others will be as enlightened as you are. It is very magnanimous of you to give the benefit of the doubt, and I believe you have had a whack posting effort, by grossly overreacting to a perceived slight against you by use of words that you found offensive, (such as “assume”), and have attempted to “tell off” Hegemony like a child for daring to disagree with you or try to debate with you.
Bottom line: if you post a set of facts with a definite and obvious bias, you cannot attack someone for inferring an opinion from that choice of facts. Everything put up on this board has an agenda, by the very nature of deciding to post it. You are not a great and impartial being; you are accountable for what you post, and if you are so thin skinned as to feel the need to launch an attack of such depth and effort over the use of such words as “assume” and “presume” you can count yourself very lucky that Swarm has never turned his attentions to you.
This is a stupidly long post and has taken me 2 hours to write, and now I am not sure what I intended to gain from it. I know I will get a huge amount of hatred from it, and probably an incredibly vicious response from LWPD, but I felt that, although name-calling is obviously bad and results in bans and the like, intellectual bullying, and attempts to publicly humiliate someone (although, as I have already said, this one failed completely as Hegemony responded perfectly adequately on his own) need to be called, and to this point I think only PH has ever attempted it before.
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Post by Eliath on Mar 14, 2007 18:18:52 GMT -5
Wow
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welsh
Midcarder
Born in the USA...
Posts: 94
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Post by welsh on Mar 14, 2007 18:37:35 GMT -5
ooh, how ironic...Destination X is on...this is actually the first time I will see it !! Kurt Angle vs. Scott Steiner is up. (I live in the UK, so a bit behind...)
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welsh
Midcarder
Born in the USA...
Posts: 94
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Post by welsh on Mar 14, 2007 18:48:30 GMT -5
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BTW it's Liger (as in a Lion/Tiger hybrid).
