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Post by gwffantrav on Jun 26, 2006 11:13:20 GMT -5
But to be fair about the injury part, the WWE does have a habit of releasing mid card guys when they are on the shelf with an injury. So maybe it's a case of not burning bridges with TNA and other indy promotions because they can still work a somewhat lighter schedule and get paid.
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 26, 2006 13:14:19 GMT -5
IT was me that said Joe looked sluggish, and I think tommy nailed it, after seeing him a few times, I just don't think he's all that great. What I would really like to see is some of the TNA spot guys, (Like Styles, Daniels and Williams) actually develop some personality, they're all fun to see in the ring, but its sorta like watching the World series with Chicago -St.Louis when you live in Boston... sure, you'll watch, but you don't really care what happens. I assume at some point in the past Daniels was a heel (with the "Fallen Angel" thing), why not go with that? It seems like Williams could actually be a pretty decent heel outside of the goofy Team Canada thing.. he reminds me of Simon Dean, with a better work rate. (I know, Simon Dean was someone else in ECW or something, but you get the idea) TNA has some great veterans on the mic (Konnan and Road Dogg, the Dudleyz, Sting,, etc) so surely SOMEONE can teach them how to cut a decent promo... You know what makes me nuts about this post: the fact that the writers on TNA have failed to convey any kind of personality whatsoever for a guy like Daniels who is actually really good on the mic shows how really screwed up Impact has been. Wildfire is a casual TNA fan. This is who they should be trying to attract. Daniels had an amazing character as the Fallen Angel. And AJ could play the cocky role as well as anyone in the fed; he didn't even need to be a heel or cut a promo. The guy would do a spot and then walk through and hi-five audience members. In both cases, Impact has done NOTHING to convey two solid characters who should be the backbone of TNA. Way to go. |
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Post by floydthebarber on Jun 26, 2006 13:56:23 GMT -5
It was me who said you should take into account that his knee is busted up. If it isn't...then he needs to step up his game again...but this circular logic is a great way to twist things around. I know about as much as Joe's injured knee as you do Joe...so to 'speculate' that his knee isn't that bad because he's still working ROH dates is a bit of a reach. It might be...it might not be...I was just offering up an opinion on why Joe might be 'taking it easy' in some of his matches. People can think he sucks...I'm just giving those who actually like Joe reason to remain positive with all the anti-TNA negativity floating around.
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Post by Joe on Jun 26, 2006 14:00:52 GMT -5
It was me who said you should take into account that his knee is busted up. If it isn't...then he needs to step up his game again...but this circular logic is a great way to twist things around. I know about as much as Joe's injured knee as you do Joe...so to 'speculate' that his knee isn't that bad because he's still working ROH dates is a bit of a reach. It might be...it might not be...I was just offering up an opinion on why Joe might be 'taking it easy' in some of his matches. People can think he sucks...I'm just giving those who actually like Joe reason to remain positive with all the anti-TNA negativity floating around. I wasn't speculating about his knee being injured. I was pointing out that if his knee was not seriously injured, as Tommy suggested could be the case, then the knee injury accounting for poor performance is a non-issue. I did not twist anything, nor have I said Joe looked bad recently. |
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Post by floydthebarber on Jun 26, 2006 14:08:38 GMT -5
Sounds to me like circular logic...but your right, the operative word in your post is 'IF'...
You didn't twist thing around per-se...but for someone reading it (like myself) after reading some of the other Samoa Joe posts in the thread, it sounded a lot like planting yet another seed of doubt against Joe.
Call me the optimist...but I'm willing to give SJ the benifit of the doubt that he is hurt and trying to work though it to capatilize on his popularity and earn some extra bucks (and keep his ROH bloodlines intact). I've already said twice that now is the time to rest him...but if he's got bills to pay and he only gets paid if he works...
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Post by Joe on Jun 26, 2006 14:22:06 GMT -5
I like Samoa Joe. I hope the cat goes on to have a fine career, be it in TNA or somewhere else.
I think it is obvious that he is hurt in some way. It is probably the injury that has led to so much of his TV time of late being promos and vignettes. In another thread, I said I never thought Samoa Joe could talk until I saw his video package in which he talked about Steiner. He is very good on the mic, and if it took this injury to convince TNA to showcase it, so be it.
That said, if he is suffering from a serious knee injury, it is not in his or TNA's best interest at this point to be running around the country taking indy dates.
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Post by Wildfire on Jun 26, 2006 14:47:59 GMT -5
You know what makes me nuts about this post: the fact that the writers on TNA have failed to convey any kind of personality whatsoever for a guy like Daniels who is actually really good on the mic shows how really screwed up Impact has been. Wildfire is a casual TNA fan. This is who they should be trying to attract. Daniels had an amazing character as the Fallen Angel. And AJ could play the cocky role as well as anyone in the fed; he didn't even need to be a heel or cut a promo. The guy would do a spot and then walk through and hi-five audience members. In both cases, Impact has done NOTHING to convey two solid characters who should be the backbone of TNA. Way to go. You nailed it here, PH... If they can't attract me, a casual fan who REALLY wants to like TNA and misses good wrestling, who are they attracting? At this point, I'll probably watch this week, but to be honest, I spent the majority of last week's show playing my GWF card and only barely looking up at the TV. (no need to look at Cornette, after all) Now that the TUF lead-in is gone for a while, they're going to have to impress me with the title resolution to keep me tuning in... Otherwise, I'll like stick with reading the boards here and over on the Observer until TUF returns... |
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Post by Splattercat on Jun 27, 2006 3:07:03 GMT -5
Well, on another note, I don't want to see any TNA guys on ECW because I'm still not convinced that ECW has any sort of longevity or indivituality to it...I'm sure part of the reason that certain wrestlers don't want to work for WWE is the travel schedule...TNA may not pay as much as WWE but at least when you work for TNA you're not selling your mind body and soul...
Personally, I think working for ECW looks like a step down from working for TNA...Beyond that, WWE has a notorious habit of thumbing guys that worked for other promotions...I really don't want to see Samoa Joe work for WWE and hit the glass ceiling for a couple months before being dropped to midcard and eventually obscurity...I think he (and the others mentioned) has a much better future with TNA than with WWE/ECW...
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Post by floydthebarber on Jun 27, 2006 15:26:39 GMT -5
I don't think working for ECW would be a step down from TNA...but I do see what your saying about the 'mind, body and soul' aspect of the travel and schedual. That being said, many of the TNA guys also work indy dates as well...so they are pretty busy too.
I think it just boils down to 'do you want to work for the biggest company in the industry and become a piece of meat with the potential to become a million dollar superstar...and even more potential to be spit out the azz end of the company when they are done with you...OR have a bit more 'control' over your career, but earn a lot less money and do it more for the 'love' than the fame.
It seems like an easy choice...but I've got a lot of respect for guys like Sting and Christian who have said 'no thanks'. They may even second guess it from time to time, but they are just going with their heart/gut and I've got a lot of respect for that.
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Post by swarm on Jun 27, 2006 17:25:54 GMT -5
Well, on another note, I don't want to see any TNA guys on ECW because I'm still not convinced that ECW has any sort of longevity or indivituality to it...I'm sure part of the reason that certain wrestlers don't want to work for WWE is the travel schedule...TNA may not pay as much as WWE but at least when you work for TNA you're not selling your mind body and soul... Personally, I think working for ECW looks like a step down from working for TNA...Beyond that, WWE has a notorious habit of thumbing guys that worked for other promotions...I really don't want to see Samoa Joe work for WWE and hit the glass ceiling for a couple months before being dropped to midcard and eventually obscurity...I think he (and the others mentioned) has a much better future with TNA than with WWE/ECW... You have to understand, Somoa Joe is not that good...in the WWE there is no way he would ever be better than mid-card because he just isn't better than that. It's easy for him and few other guys to be big fish in TNA cause it's TNA... Somoa Joe would be the luckiest fat guy in the world even having the opportunity to hit the "glass ceiling" in the WWE. In ECW, he could be good, but in the WWE, he isn't any better than mid-card, and I'm sure he knows that...that's probably why he stayed with TNA. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 27, 2006 17:39:45 GMT -5
You have to understand, Somoa Joe is not that good...in the WWE there is no way he would ever be better than mid-card because he just isn't better than that. It's easy for him and few other guys to be big fish in TNA cause it's TNA... Somoa Joe would be the luckiest fat guy in the world even having the opportunity to hit the "glass ceiling" in the WWE. In ECW, he could be good, but in the WWE, he isn't any better than mid-card, and I'm sure he knows that...that's probably why he stayed with TNA. Part of this is true... After all, Joe's whole wrestling style would be ground down under "WWE Style" until he had all the unique appeal of everyone else working the exact same style. To top it off, he would probably wind up in a grass skirt and face-paint in a tag team with Umaga or something. Under those circumstances, he would surely never rise above midcard. |
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Post by floydthebarber on Jun 27, 2006 17:57:34 GMT -5
Nearly my answer word for word. Joe and WWE are not a good fit. ECW and Joe would be...but then he'd have to join WWE and that is not a good fit. Joe made the right decision for him. Nobody is saying Joe is the next coming of Benoit or Bret Hart or Stone Cold or The Rock...but the guy has that 'it' quality that has helped him get this far...and will help him climb to the top of the indy/non-WWE wrestling scene...and that includes Japan too.
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Post by Splattercat on Jun 28, 2006 1:59:03 GMT -5
If Joe were to work in WWE, there would have to be agreements made on both sides...Joe is allowed to keep his identity, but would have to alter his wrestling style, lose the Muscle Buster, and change the name of the Coquina Clutch...More importantly he'd have to work out and put himself in WWE TV shape (not that big a deal if you think about it)...
The thing is, though, if they could meet all those (and possibly other) requirements, Joe could be a legitimate star in WWE...The fact that he's a great brawler makes him a natural fit with Raw's style...The fact that he's a great technical wrestler makes him a natural for Smackdown...
Sadly, the fact is, this will never happen and if he were to go to WWE more than likely they would misuse him because he made his name somewhere else...Especially if TNA were to go out of business...
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Post by swarm on Jun 28, 2006 8:29:37 GMT -5
See I don't think Joe has made a name for himslef at all in this business. The % of "smarks" who know who he vs. the % of people who would have no idea who he is or where he came from if he showed up on a WWE show is astronomical.
So I don't think that would be a problem. The problem is simple. Joe just isn't marketable on the big stage...not even face paint, a killer gimmick, and a talented maanger could help him get over in the WWE. Maybe in ECW. But like Splatter cat said, he would need to get his butt in the gym and he has shown no signs of caring about what he looks like so my guess is that he will never make it any farther than head-lining indy shows.
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Post by gatekeeper on Jun 28, 2006 9:54:54 GMT -5
You have to understand, Samoa Joe is not that good...in the WWE there is no way he would ever be better than mid-card because he just isn't better than that. It's easy for him and few other guys to be big fish in TNA cause it's TNA... In ECW, he could be good, but in the WWE, he isn't any better than mid-card, and I'm sure he knows that...that's probably why he stayed with TNA. This is very true. TNA has been around for 4 years and how many of their guys have jumped to WWE. None. Why? Because they know. And because Vince knows too. |
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 28, 2006 10:57:51 GMT -5
See I don't think Joe has made a name for himslef at all in this business. The % of "smarks" who know who he vs. the % of people who would have no idea who he is or where he came from if he showed up on a WWE show is astronomical. So I don't think that would be a problem. The problem is simple. Joe just isn't marketable on the big stage...not even face paint, a killer gimmick, and a talented maanger could help him get over in the WWE. Maybe in ECW. But like Splatter cat said, he would need to get his butt in the gym and he has shown no signs of caring about what he looks like so my guess is that he will never make it any farther than head-lining indy shows. I'm a big fan of Joe, but DR has a really good point. Joe getting over has nothing to do with his look. It's his wrestling style. He's a decent submission guy and ROH fans loved the fact that he took crazy bumps for a guy his size and he works STIFF AS HELL. I want to reiterate, a big part of his popularity is that he works extremely stiff. The WWE would never let Joe work that way. He'd never get more than 5 minutes of TV time in a ring. And really, whatever character he's developed is based solely on his ringwork; he can't be an unbeatable monster, a Samoan Submission Machine, if he's got the same move set as eeryone else in the E. Sort of the reason Taz never got over. And why would ECW want a "shoot" type wrestler when they have Kurt Angle? Joe is better off doing what he's doing or signing an extended contract in Japan where he'd be a huge star. |
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Post by myview on Jun 28, 2006 16:23:28 GMT -5
I still like TNA Wrestling, they've come along way but I agree that they still need work on the product.
After watching lastnights ECW I can say for sure that will be my last ECW show I'll watch, TNA has delivered some solid action since I've been watching and I'm excited to see whats next from TNA Wrestling.
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Post by swarm on Jun 28, 2006 17:35:50 GMT -5
what was wrong with last night's ECW show? It was great.
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 28, 2006 17:48:11 GMT -5
what was wrong with last night's ECW show? It was great. DUH..the ring only had FOUR SIDES!! |
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Post by LWPD on Jun 28, 2006 17:56:46 GMT -5
Swarm has Muscle Bustered the correct. SJ himself has repeatedly said that he is not a good fit for WWE. He didn't blindly come to this conclusion. It comes from stints working in UPW...which at the time was a WWE developmental affiliate similar to OVW. This meant seeing first hand what WWE expected of new talent from it's scouting agents, knowing who got 'deals' and why they got them and learning 'how things would go' if he was a part of the WWE roster. He knows what would be expected of him and how he would most likely be used...and all things considered has decided it's not what he wants for himself.
That's why SJ never pursued a shot at OVW....he never even made inquiries. He lives in Cali and wasn't willing to relocate across the country and exchange his creative independence/local Indy gigs and overseas tours for uprooting himself and incurring more personal expenses with less in the way of income just for the prize of a developmental contract. He reasoned it would likely be a dead end and he's probably right. All things considered he's wound up doing well for himself on his own terms.
I give him all the credit in the world for bucking the odds, carving his own niche and finding a way to make both a living and a name for himself. I respect even more the fact that he thoroughly understands the limitations inherent in the path he's chosen. It would be a much healthier industry if more guys had a good head on their shoulders like Samoa Joe does.
LWPD (depending upon how much creative leeway Paul Heyman is given...SJ could be a very good potential signing for the new ECW project...and if it was up to Paul he would probably be able to keep most of his persona and style in tact)
"You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that what Samoa Joe is and what WWE expects from their wrestlers just doesn't match up."
-Joe Seannoa 'the man' on the prospects of 'Samoa Joe' the pro wres performer
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