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Post by Splattercat on Jun 24, 2006 13:02:23 GMT -5
Just remember that Joe is working with a torn knee ligiment Wildfire. He's clearly been slowed down by it the last month or so, so to judge him based on that is a little unfair. I agree that the 'protective' Title losses are a bit lame...but there is a point to having someone build up an undefeated streak, and its not just to be like Goldberg. Speaking of undefeated streaks, I'm still rather bitter about how the WWE handled Burchill's...I expected more from it since they made reference to it every time he came out, and even used it in a storyline with William Regal...Instead he was Squashed, in a no-offense match, by Mark Henry... |
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Post by canadianpittbull on Jun 24, 2006 13:18:36 GMT -5
Burchill's pirate gimmick rocked and I thought it was garbage when I saw Henry squash match him. Man they get a great gimmick idea with a guy who can pull it off and they crush it. Stupid WWE Creative! They better not waste Burchell.  |
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 24, 2006 13:27:57 GMT -5
And you know that the TNA booking committee is defending the Jarrett title win with "Hey, Jarrett's getting killer heel heat!" Ugh. Just...ugh. Y'know..there are some pretty smart people working for TNA. I seriously doubt EVERYONe believes that. This is case of Jarrett using the pull he has in the company, and the influence he has over the people who don't fully understand the 'heat' he gets, to put himself at the top of the company. Basiccally, whenever TNA takes a step forward without him, he uses his pull to get the company refocused on him. And kills off any momentum they've gained. JJ is probably the least interesting heel they have on the roster. TNA WILL NEVER becoime a national presence as long as he is the main focus of the show. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 24, 2006 14:32:04 GMT -5
Okay...you know that Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett are saying that, and they override the entire booking committee.
It works out to the being the same difference in the booking plans...with Scott D'Amore and Mike Tenay trying to tell guys "Uh, it's okay...we'll still work something out."
As far as Joe working four-way matches go...without knowing how the matches were laid out (and I don't care to check), three and four way matches are about the best way to protect an injured worker aside from tag team matches, while still benefitting from his draw value (and I would imagine that his name on a card does draw for ROH, but if I am wrong, then I am...not claiming any great knowledge in who or what draws the ROH crowd to an arena).
Is it SMART? Well, there's whole documentaries pointing out how stupid it is to be a professional wrestler as it is...crippled, penniless, bitter legends and all that.
Since his injury, it seems like he's only worked one one-on-one match - with Steiner - which, by most accounts was better than anything anyone expected to see Scott Steiner in given that it's 2006.
And to reply to PH's last point, Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels were much more interesting heels than Jarrett, but the Impact Zone fans had to go and turn them face (or quasi-face, in Joe's case).
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 24, 2006 15:20:39 GMT -5
Okay...you know that Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett are saying that, and they override the entire booking committee. It works out to the being the same difference in the booking plans...with Scott D'Amore and Mike Tenay trying to tell guys "Uh, it's okay...we'll still work something out." As far as Joe working four-way matches go...without knowing how the matches were laid out (and I don't care to check), three and four way matches are about the best way to protect an injured worker aside from tag team matches, while still benefitting from his draw value (and I would imagine that his name on a card does draw for ROH, but if I am wrong, then I am...not claiming any great knowledge in who or what draws the ROH crowd to an arena). Is it SMART? Well, there's whole documentaries pointing out how stupid it is to be a professional wrestler as it is...crippled, penniless, bitter legends and all that. Since his injury, it seems like he's only worked one one-on-one match - with Steiner - which, by most accounts was better than anything anyone expected to see Scott Steiner in given that it's 2006. And to reply to PH's last point, Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels were much more interesting heels than Jarrett, but the Impact Zone fans had to go and turn them face (or quasi-face, in Joe's case). Lots of good stuff in this post: Yeah, Carter and JJ are the last word on the booking team. if you believe the rumors, Dixie had fallen 'out of love with' JJ for a minute there(not thrilled with TNA's ratings); but its like when they realized the Christian experiment wasnt (mainly because he's boring as a face) drawing new viewers they went back to 'old reliable' JJ. I don't know that for sure, but you can almost see the thought process. Joe is indeed still a draw in ROH, and the multiple wrestlers matches are the best way to protect him. But if he really wanted to protect himself, Joe would do the TNA tapings and stop doing any of the other shows. His body is his career, and it would seem like the better decision would be to take some time off now instead of a lot of time off later. And the point about the Impact Zone fans is dead on: the fans though are so busy trying to show off how 'smart' they are, and how much they appreciate work-rate that they don't realize that they're actually hurting the product on TV. T New viewers want to know who the bad guys are and who the good guys are. Hard to tell when everyone has their own cheering section. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 24, 2006 17:23:02 GMT -5
In defense of Joe...I'm sure he doesn't have the downside guarantee of even a midcard WWE guy. He has a TNA contract whose details I'm not privy to, but I'm guessing there's at least some kind of financial need to work the ROH shows, which is - in part - the reason he risks his health to do so right now.
Is it smarter for him to take the time off now and lessen the chance of extending the injury or should he continue working in protected situations for the payday? I have no idea. Realistically, he could sit out the shows, miss out on the payday and get in a car accident going to the grocery store and wind up crippled...or he could keep going like he's doing and wind up wrestling ten years from now with boths knees in braces ala Austin.
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Post by swarm on Jun 24, 2006 17:35:19 GMT -5
In defense of Joe...I'm sure he doesn't have the downside guarantee of even a midcard WWE guy. He has a TNA contract whose details I'm not privy to, but I'm guessing there's at least some kind of financial need to work the ROH shows, which is - in part - the reason he risks his health to do so right now. Is it smarter for him to take the time off now and lessen the chance of extending the injury or should he continue working in protected situations for the payday? I have no idea. Realistically, he could sit out the shows, miss out on the payday and get in a car accident going to the grocery store and wind up crippled...or he could keep going like he's doing and wind up wrestling ten years from now with boths knees in braces ala Austin. man if that isn't the perfect pitch as to why Joe should quit TNA and join the big boys, I don't know what is. |
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Post by floydthebarber on Jun 24, 2006 18:11:47 GMT -5
Two things could be behind this. 1. He already committed to the dates, and they book him in a 4 man match in order to take some pressure off. 2. He needs to earn a living. ROH is a payday, and you've got to think that doing 8-10 ROH dates a year is worth an extra $10-20K a year?
Should he be resting it? Probably. The focus in TNA is on JJJ, Sting, Cage and the other NWA Title contenders that they can get away with having Joe on the shelf for 3-4 months...only to bring him back stronger than ever...and ready to go after the NWA Title.
From watching him the last month or so, compared to his stuff 3-4 months ago, he is clearly hurt and 'protecting' it as best he can while still working the 'Joe' style that has gotten him this far.
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Post by mwjergs on Jun 24, 2006 21:47:23 GMT -5
There have been plenty of wrestlers who have worked injured when they should have taken time off. So I'm unsure what the discussion is about.
It would have made sense for the company to have Steiner go beserk on Joe after his loss at Slammiversary and "injure" him. He gets his heat back and Joe can return at full strength a few months down the road to continue the program. They can also get the X belt off him with the old "defense in 30 days" angle.
Why he isn't taking time off is his own business. There were reports years ago that Benoit, Angle and even Kevin Nash would never wrestle again, but they still do.
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Post by mwjergs on Jun 24, 2006 22:09:43 GMT -5
As for the show-
Cornette starting the show was fine. He gave a strong interview as he usually can. He is the "new face" of the company and should provide some focus to the show.
JJ is stripped of the belt. Great! I'm not sure about where they go with it though. Tournament? Battle Royal? Who should get the title? In a way it can make sense, Cornette is the new head, you get a new champion.
Eric Young was very funny and is another young wrestler that should be repackaged sans the tired "Team Canada" gimmick. "DON'T FIRE ERIC YOUNG"
Styles and Daniels are great wrestlers. I wasn't sure about them getting the tag belts but they are good in the ring. Not sure about the deal with the S-He in the ring with them. Having her in the ring was no worse than when Chyna was HHH's bodyguard.
K-Dogg's promo was strong. I didn't like the way the segment played out though.
Monty in a squash. You can't have these matches when the show is an hour. He gets recruited to LAX. No real response. Then even quicker Killings is out. Too rushed. Not sure about the whole race card being used. Smells like Smokey Mountain Gansta type stuff.
This week on Yo Momma!: Dudleys v. James Gang. Dumb segment. They just had a hardcore type match and they are trading "mama" insults but it really gets bad when you bring up dad.
Three way was not the way to have Joe drop the belt. I like Senshi as champ, just didn't like how they did it.
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 24, 2006 23:03:22 GMT -5
man if that isn't the perfect pitch as to why Joe should quit TNA and join the big boys, I don't know what is. I can see both sides, myself...the appeal of a deal with TNA that allows you to take non-competing indy dates and the appeal of a downside guarantee WWE contract. Of course, if he had signed a WWE contract, say, 9 months ago...it's entirely possible he'd get hurt, be home 6 months and then be told he's being let go and he's in at least as bad off. It does happen...not often, but often enough to be a concern for guys. |
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Post by Wildfire on Jun 24, 2006 23:29:50 GMT -5
I was aware that Joe was hurt, but even when he's healthy I find him to look sorta lumbering. I think he looks a lot better with the very stiff moves and suplexs and such... when he moves too much, or outside the ring, he just looks very slow, IMO
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Post by swarm on Jun 25, 2006 10:08:05 GMT -5
As far as Joe working four-way matches go... Since his injury, it seems like he's only worked one one-on-one match - with Steiner ROH house show report 6-24 Chicago Ridge, IL by Keith Lipinski Ring of Honor Frontier Fieldhouse Chicago Ridge, IL June 24, 2006 4) Samoa Joe beat Delirious in 10:58 - Crowd chanted "F— Scott Steiner!" Delirious ran around the ring and grabbed a fan's Cubs hat and threw it into the ring. Joe put the hat on and got booed. The Frontier Fieldhouse is White Sox territory. Running theme throughout the match was Delirious trying to bodyslam Joe. Twice he failed, but on the third attempt Delirious finally got the Samoan up. Joe got the win after hitting the Muscle Buster. Return date is August 26th. Announced matches include Bryan Danielson vs. Cabana in a 2 out of 3 falls match billed as "Cabana's Last Chance" and Samoa Joe vs. Claudio Castagnoli.so much for the theory that Joe is protecting his knee in 4 man matches... I am confused...is Joe just dumb, or are the TNA guys just poor? A lot of them seem to fight on these indy shows all the time. |
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Post by PureHatred on Jun 25, 2006 11:55:14 GMT -5
As far as Joe working four-way matches go... Since his injury, it seems like he's only worked one one-on-one match - with Steiner I am confused...is Joe just dumb, or are the TNA guys just poor? A lot of them seem to fight on these indy shows all the time. I don't know about 'poor.' But from what I understand, taking the indy dates doubles he income of guys like Joe, Daniels, AJ Styles, etc. Whihc at their salary level is probably the difference between 'paying the bills' and 'living comnfortable and having money to invest.' |
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Post by swarm on Jun 25, 2006 14:52:05 GMT -5
You're right, "poor" was probably the wrong word to use...Hard up for more money might be a better way to put it...
here's the thing...I want to eventually see some of these guys like Joe, Daniels, Styles, and Roode in ECW, and I am concerned that they have to work through injuries while wrestling under the TNA banner.
When they make it to the big time, I would imagine fans of theirs would want them to be as healthy as possible so they can flourish at the top, instead of struggling because of having to work through potential serious injury while wrestling at the bottom of the industry.
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Post by Chewey on Jun 25, 2006 15:15:28 GMT -5
here's the thing...I want to eventually see some of these guys like Joe, Daniels, Styles, and Roode in ECW Yeah, I agree with you there. Joe, Daniels, Styles, Roode, and throw in AMW are the only guys I like in TNA, and I would also love to see them in ECW under the booking of Paul Heyman. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 25, 2006 16:03:47 GMT -5
so much for the theory that Joe is protecting his knee in 4 man matches... I am confused...is Joe just dumb, or are the TNA guys just poor? A lot of them seem to fight on these indy shows all the time. Joe may just be dumb...*shrug* Or his knee may not be as hurt as reported...that particular match, from what info was there, didn't sound like a hard-worked match (lots of stalling and attempted bodyslam spots)...but who knows? Maybe Joe has a kid somewhere he's making child support payments on...=P I'd hate to see him screw himself up needlessly, but if he IS hurt that bad, and won't slow it down, it's on him and no one else. |
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Post by Joe on Jun 25, 2006 17:16:38 GMT -5
Joe may just be dumb...*shrug* Or his knee may not be as hurt as reported...that particular match, from what info was there, didn't sound like a hard-worked match (lots of stalling and attempted bodyslam spots)...but who knows? Maybe Joe has a kid somewhere he's making child support payments on...=P I'd hate to see him screw himself up needlessly, but if he IS hurt that bad, and won't slow it down, it's on him and no one else. I may be mistaken, but the whole topic of Joe's hurt knee and working through an injury stemmed from someone saying Joe's looked sluggish and unimpressive in the ring. Someone else said to take into account that Joe's knee is busted up. If his knee isn't as bad as speculated then the injury has nothing to do with his performance, thus meaning the person who said he is not impressive in the ring should not have to take said injury into account after all. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Jun 25, 2006 18:26:39 GMT -5
True enough. I happened to stumble across a late-night replay of Impact last night and re-watched that match...while it wasn't a classic, Joe didn't look particularly sluggish to me. If anything, I'd say the poster (Wildfire, I think?) is just finding that Joe's not his cup of tea and Floyd's trying to defend him (or, more cynically, make excuses for him).
That said, the whole match kinda blew and I couldn't pinpoint whether it was Joe, Senshi or Sonjay that was stinking it up or a combination of the three (more likely).
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Post by Wildfire on Jun 26, 2006 10:51:03 GMT -5
IT was me that said Joe looked sluggish, and I think tommy nailed it, after seeing him a few times, I just don't think he's all that great.
What I would really like to see is some of the TNA spot guys, (Like Styles, Daniels and Williams) actually develop some personality, they're all fun to see in the ring, but its sorta like watching the World series with Chicago -St.Louis when you live in Boston... sure, you'll watch, but you don't really care what happens.
I assume at some point in the past Daniels was a heel (with the "Fallen Angel" thing), why not go with that? It seems like Williams could actually be a pretty decent heel outside of the goofy Team Canada thing.. he reminds me of Simon Dean, with a better work rate. (I know, Simon Dean was someone else in ECW or something, but you get the idea) TNA has some great veterans on the mic (Konnan and Road Dogg, the Dudleyz, Sting,, etc) so surely SOMEONE can teach them how to cut a decent promo...
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