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Post by floydthebarber on May 16, 2006 19:58:31 GMT -5
I don't agree with you on this...but its a close call either way.
Read what I said again. Never did I say Joe hasn't beaten 'skinny guys'...in fact, I hinted at it with my tounge in cheek response about how Swarm might like TNA more than I thought, cause if he liked Umaga and how he was rolling through competition, he must like Joe and him doing the same thing...unless of course he has something against TNA...or in his case, just doesn't care for the product...which is fair, but I just wanted to point that out.
Of course Joe was fed his fair share of skinny nobodies...he still fights them from time to time...
I'll give you this...the majority of fans who watch on TV will be swayed...and many of the 'in the arena' fans will go to whatever is 'hot'...but I think there is merit to the idea that many fans liked WWF and not WCW and the other way and would not/could not be swayed the other way. I know lots of guys who loved WCW and hated WWF the entire time the nWo/Attitude era stuff was going on...no matter who jumped to WWF, WCW was still better. Of course, they started changing their tune when it was clear WCW was on its death bed...but I'm sure even then there are/were people bemoaning WCW's demise.
WWE/TNA is nowhere near the same...not even in the same league really...but I'm sure there are plenty of examples of 'blindly loyal' followers of each fed...with the WWE marks outnumbering the TNA ones 20 to 1...or more like 2000 to 1.
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Post by Splattercat on May 17, 2006 13:34:58 GMT -5
Hmm...So much to comment on... Well first I suppose I should apologise for starting a fight that I wasn't really involved in... Second, I like TNA over WWE currently (take note of the word 'currently') because I don't like what WWE offers me as a viewer...I liked WCW when it was good, I liked WWE when WCW went all Kevin Sullivan...I loved WWE during the Rock/Austin/HHH years, and call me a Mark, but the Rock would make me watch WWE every week if he came back... Bottom line is, I defend TNA because it's what I like...WWE is continually letting me down just when it's getting good...TNA has it's problems, but right now I like watching it because even when things might suck ass storyline wise, or Don West gets on my nerves, I can watch Team Canada wrestle (for example)... Madacapa: THE ULTIMATE WARRIOR DOESN'T EXIST..!! I guarantee you the Joe match was better than the Umaga match...I'm sure the four people on here who watched Sacrifice will agree with me... Again, I kindly ask that you prove to me Umaga is not tougher than Joe... Well, I don't know how credible you guys feel the Wrestling Observer Newsletter is, but they named Samoa Joe the Best Brawler of 2005...PWI named him best brawler in (I think) 2004(?), second place being Stone Cold Steve Austin (that I know for a fact)... Regardless of how you view either, Eddie Fatu isn't mentioned in either, so.... |
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Post by Joe on May 17, 2006 14:47:35 GMT -5
I guarantee you the Joe match was better than the Umaga match...I'm sure the four people on here who watched Sacrifice will agree with me... I didn't say the match was Umaga-Flair match was better, I'm saying that running through Ric Flair is not something many have done. Kicking the hell out of Flair in under five minutes at Backlash means more for one's career than wrestling in a tag match with Sting against Jeff Jarrett and Scott Steiner at Sacrifice. To break down quite simply: -WWE is the number one wrestling promotion on the planet. -TNA is essentially an indy company with a cable deal. -Scott Steiner was let go (not re-signed, however one wants to view it; either way Vince took a pass on him) by WWE. -Jeff Jarrett was never offered a job with the company following the closing of WCW. -Sting, although supposedly has been approached at various times since the closing of WCW, has been out of wrestling for a half-decade and is clearly not in the ball park of what he once was. -Ric Flair is arguably the greatest in-ring performer in history. Flair, while obviously no longer in his prime, has shown on multiple ocassions that he is still capable of delivering the best match of the night. Much like Willie Mays, he is America's greatest living pro wrestler. Take all I noted into account, and it becomes clear which match, and win, meant more. |
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Post by Splattercat on May 17, 2006 14:59:25 GMT -5
Who gains what from wrestling the legends isn't what I was talking about though...I doubt Umaga/Flair was as entertaining to watch as Joe/Sting/Jarrett/Steiner...But I don't even know who to field that to given how many people actually SAW the latter match...All I saw in the Sacrifice results thread were people who read the results... By the way, it was a damn good show, but this isn't the place for that... Ultimately, put Flair against whoever you want the match is always the same...if you like Flair's formula for a match, then you'll like his match, because that's all he offers you: the same match over and over...Except for his match with Vince, that was sweet...  |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on May 17, 2006 18:40:07 GMT -5
Umaga's squash offense isn't the most physically demanding in the business. When your most devastating move is standing there while your poor indy jobber is doing a flip off the ring steps onto the floor with you, you'd better not be getting hurt in your matches because, well, you're COMPLETELY incompetent then.
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Post by swarm on May 18, 2006 7:55:28 GMT -5
Umaga's squash offense isn't the most physically demanding in the business. When your most devastating move is standing there while your poor indy jobber is doing a flip off the ring steps onto the floor with you, you'd better not be getting hurt in your matches because, well, you're COMPLETELY incompetent then. Yeah but see Joe is one who is injured, not Umaga, so all these "what-if's" and "but's..." really don't mean squat...and they sure as hell aren't making a point against Umaga clearly being tougher than Joe. |
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Post by gatekeeper on May 18, 2006 8:05:52 GMT -5
...I doubt Umaga/Flair was as entertaining to watch as Joe/Sting/Jarrett/Steiner... Ultimately, put Flair against whoever you want the match is always the same...if you like Flair's formula for a match, then you'll like his match, because that's all he offers you: the same match over and over...Except for his match with Vince, that was sweet... Well, I don't think Umaga/Flair was supposed to be one of the greatest matches of all time. It was to build Umaga up against one of the all-time greats. To your second point, I agree - but you can say that about almost every wrestler ever, except for probably Bret Hart and Curt Hennig. I'm sure there are some more but those 2 jump out at me as being able to have great matches that aren't formulaic. This is a problem in pro wrestling today. You know certain matches won't end because wrestler A hasn't done one of his "signature" spots. I wish there would be more matches where that wasn't the case. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on May 18, 2006 16:26:06 GMT -5
Umaga's squash offense isn't the most physically demanding in the business. When your most devastating move is standing there while your poor indy jobber is doing a flip off the ring steps onto the floor with you, you'd better not be getting hurt in your matches because, well, you're COMPLETELY incompetent then. Yeah but see Joe is one who is injured, not Umaga, so all these "what-if's" and "but's..." really don't mean squat...and they sure as hell aren't making a point against Umaga clearly being tougher than Joe. By your reasoning, guys that get hurt are wimps and guys that don't, aren't... Then Kurt Angle is one of the biggest wusses to step foot in a ring in the last five years. |
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Post by swarm on May 18, 2006 16:40:50 GMT -5
Yeah but see Joe is one who is injured, not Umaga, so all these "what-if's" and "but's..." really don't mean squat...and they sure as hell aren't making a point against Umaga clearly being tougher than Joe. By your reasoning, guys that get hurt are wimps and guys that don't, aren't... Then Kurt Angle is one of the biggest wusses to step foot in a ring in the last five years. nope. never said that. just said Umaga is tougher than Joe...not talking about Brock Lesner, not talking about Kurt Angle... talking about Joe and Umaga...if you want to debate me, let's keep it between them, ok? |
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Post by Chewey on May 18, 2006 19:31:13 GMT -5
I'm missing something. So measuring a wrestler's toughness by not getting injured only applies when we're talking about Joe and Umaga and no one else? In either case, it's an unfair comparison because Joe has been wrestling full-time for the last year, while up until the last month, Umaga was just sitting on his ass getting fat.
Both men are supposed to get main event-level pushes, and since WWE Main Eventer > TNA Main Eventer any day, that would give Umaga this round. But I still think it's just so that he can get destroyed by Batista and then go away while Armando Alejandro Estrada can bring in a new monster heel guy.
No doubt, WWE can make anyone who has got the size look like a badass monster if they shove him down our throats enough. They're doing it with Mark Henry, and we all know that after ten years of experience, Henry can barely execute a single wrestling move. Same thing with Chris Masters. It's the WWE engine, not Umaga that makes him look tough. Umaga is just a dime-a-dozen big guy, just like half of the Divas are dime-a-dozen bimbos that are nothing without the marketing power of Vincent K. McMahon.
People like Joe because he can actually work in the ring. People like Umaga just because Vince said so.
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Post by floydthebarber on May 18, 2006 19:33:24 GMT -5
Looks like Joe dodged the big one, and may get away with taking it easy for 2-3 months working minimal minutes. Maybe this can be a true test of just how tough Samoa Joe is...it can't be comfortable to wrestle with a torn PCL...
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Post by gatekeeper on May 18, 2006 20:02:34 GMT -5
No doubt, WWE can make anyone who has got the size look like a badass monster if they shove him down our throats enough. They're doing it with Mark Henry, and we all know that after ten years of experience, Henry can barely execute a single wrestling move. Same thing with Chris Masters. It's the WWE engine, not Umaga that makes him look tough. Umaga is just a dime-a-dozen big guy, just like half of the Divas are dime-a-dozen bimbos that are nothing without the marketing power of Vincent K. McMahon. People like Joe because he can actually work in the ring. People like Umaga just because Vince said so. I didn't get this part of your post. The big, brawler wrestlers are never going to be technicians. They all use the punch, kick, and body slam excessively. That's what makes them the bruising figure they want them to be. I still don't get why people dog Masters. Saying this guy can't wrestle is wrong. Sure, he's far from polished, but this guy is one of the young up and comers in WWE. For what he's done so far, I enjoy him on Raw. People say how he's a bad worker, but I don't see it. And saying people like Umaga because Vince says so is like saying people like Joe because TNA pushes him down our throats. You can make that argument for any guy if you really wanted to. |
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Post by swarm on May 18, 2006 20:03:34 GMT -5
I'm missing something. So measuring a wrestler's toughness by not getting injured only applies when we're talking about Joe and Umaga and no one else? In either case, it's an unfair comparison because Joe has been wrestling full-time for the last year, while up until the last month, Umaga was just sitting on his butt getting fat. Both men are supposed to get main event-level pushes, and since WWE Main Eventer > TNA Main Eventer any day, that would give Umaga this round. But I still think it's just so that he can get destroyed by Batista and then go away while Armando Alejandro Estrada can bring in a new monster heel guy. No doubt, WWE can make anyone who has got the size look like a badass monster if they shove him down our throats enough. They're doing it with Mark Henry, and we all know that after ten years of experience, Henry can barely execute a single wrestling move. Same thing with Chris Masters. It's the WWE engine, not Umaga that makes him look tough. Umaga is just a dime-a-dozen big guy, just like half of the Divas are dime-a-dozen bimbos that are nothing without the marketing power of Vincent K. McMahon. People like Joe because he can actually work in the ring. People like Umaga just because Vince said so. I don't like Umaga cause Vince says so. I like him cause he's freaking awesome. |
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Post by Chewey on May 18, 2006 22:00:15 GMT -5
And saying people like Umaga because Vince says so is like saying people like Joe because TNA pushes him down our throats. You can make that argument for any guy if you really wanted to. Fair enough. Maybe that was an unfair statement. All I'm saying about brawlers though is that any big guy can punch and kick. And I realize that's what they're supposed to do. They're like the Tank Abbot that just plows through guys instead of spending years studying a martial art in some dojo somewhere. Everyone loves one of those guys every now and then. But it's just that when a big dude gets to do it in a WWE ring, they get more exposure, and the marketing machine that is WWE is what gets them over. Sometimes they have a remarkable amount of charisma that they carry themselves with (like Batista and JBL), but WWE can generally get guys over just on size and look. I don't think we'll ever agree on Chris Masters (well, at least not until he actually improves  ). But I've never doubted your claim that Masters is going to be a future world champion. I just hope that he's better than he is right now when he wins it. |
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Post by BDS on May 19, 2006 6:46:16 GMT -5
Looks like Joe dodged the big one, and may get away with taking it easy for 2-3 months working minimal minutes. Maybe this can be a true test of just how tough Samoa Joe is...it can't be comfortable to wrestle with a torn PCL... According to Gabe on the ROH boards, Joe is questionable for the ROH show on 6/3, likely for the ROH show on 6/17, and should make every ROH show after 6/17. Doesn't look like it will be too bad for him. The next TNA taping is a week from Monday, so my guess would be that he'll just do angles there and we won't see him wrestle until their next PPV. So, pretty good news for Joe fans. Everyone else can continue to watch Umaga or something, I guess. Whatever floats your boat. |
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on May 19, 2006 8:13:22 GMT -5
I still don't get why people dog Masters. I'm guessing you didn't order Backlash, where he completely forgot to kick out at one point of the match. Or that you missed the RAW where Carlito officially turned on him: Masters was supposed to be out cold and Carlito was going to spit the apple on him; when Carlito couldn't find the apple, Masters actually started looking for it instead of continuing to play dead. The simple truth is the guy is clearly not ready for primetime, especially not on live TV. If the WWE does a draft this year, he needs some pre-taped protection until he loses his raw greeness. |
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Post by Chewey on May 19, 2006 9:03:19 GMT -5
I'm guessing you didn't order Backlash, where he completely forgot to kick out at one point of the match. Or that you missed the RAW where Carlito officially turned on him: Masters was supposed to be out cold and Carlito was going to spit the apple on him; when Carlito couldn't find the apple, Masters actually started looking for it instead of continuing to play dead. Hahahahaha, that was great. Seriously, I missed the part where Masters sat up (thank Rick Scaia for pointing that out), but I was wondering why Carlito looked so pissed that when he finally found the apple, he spiked it to the canvass and spat a real loogie into Masters' face. Last Monday in the Texas Tornado match, every time the ring was cleared and it was just Masters and a face in there, Masters would stomp the guy a couple of times, and then look up and around to his other colleagues just to make sure he wasn't screwing anything up. He clearly doesn't feel comfortable in the ring yet... the basic motions don't come to him naturally. But it doesn't seem like he has a big head, and it does look like he is trying to learn. So I'll give him props there. And since he's got another twenty years to learn the trade at his young age, maybe he will improve after all. It's just funny to watch him screw up now. |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on May 19, 2006 11:15:30 GMT -5
By your reasoning, guys that get hurt are wimps and guys that don't, aren't... Then Kurt Angle is one of the biggest wusses to step foot in a ring in the last five years. nope. never said that. just said Umaga is tougher than Joe...not talking about Brock Lesner, not talking about Kurt Angle... talking about Joe and Umaga...if you want to debate me, let's keep it between them, ok? Don't you hate it when someone hits you where it hurts, using your own logic? Fine. Every Umaga match is confined to approximately three minutes. His entire offense consists entirely of his opponent bumping for him. He takes no moves, thus, he takes no real bumps. Umaga does nothing during the course of a match that runs a real risk of injury barring freak circumstances. That doesn't make him tough. That makes him lucky and protected. |
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Post by swarm on May 19, 2006 11:47:40 GMT -5
nope. never said that. just said Umaga is tougher than Joe...not talking about Brock Lesner, not talking about Kurt Angle... talking about Joe and Umaga...if you want to debate me, let's keep it between them, ok? Don't you hate it when someone hits you where it hurts, using your own logic? Fine. Every Umaga match is confined to approximately three minutes. His entire offense consists entirely of his opponent bumping for him. He takes no moves, thus, he takes no real bumps. Umaga does nothing during the course of a match that runs a real risk of injury barring freak circumstances. That doesn't make him tough. That makes him lucky and protected. Look, I understand since it has become your dream to fight in the six sided ring you have become more pro-TNA and anti-WWE than ever before...and that's fine, as I very much wish you luck and hope one day you make it... but my point is very simple, very black and white... IMO, Umaga is tougher than Joe. He's bigger, he's stronger, I think he's faster, and, he has never been injured. I'm not talking about Kurt Angle, or Brock Lesner, or anybody else... Just Joe... with that said, I could care less about your logic as I'm the last person who's feelings you're going to hurt. Good luck to Joe, his knee, and good luck to you too. I mean it. |
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Post by Joe on May 19, 2006 14:43:32 GMT -5
Don't you hate it when someone hits you where it hurts, using your own logic? Fine. Every Umaga match is confined to approximately three minutes. His entire offense consists entirely of his opponent bumping for him. He takes no moves, thus, he takes no real bumps. Umaga does nothing during the course of a match that runs a real risk of injury barring freak circumstances. That doesn't make him tough. That makes him lucky and protected. I remember a lot of people being hyped about the re-signing of Jamal because they thought it was going to lead to a 3 Minute Warning reunion. People talked about what a huge upside Jamal had and how he had been mastering his craft in various places. Seriously, there was very little, if any, criticism of him. Then WWE released Rosie, thus bringing an end to the IWC's hopes for 3MW reunion. Instead, WWE unleashed Umaga onto the scene. Now I hear he sucks. Now I read he's sloppy and reckless in the ring. Now I read experts and insiders like Tommy Brownell call him "lucky and protected," and question his toughness. I could be wrong, but from where I sit the only thing that has changed about Jamal is the way WWE is packaging him. Internet wrestling fans criticize other, less-informed fans for being "mindless sheep" for liking what Vince pushes at them, but aren't the fans who are now critical of a guy they once praised just because Vince is pushing him guilty of the same thing, only in reverse? |
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). But I've never doubted your claim that Masters is going to be a future world champion. I just hope that he's better than he is right now when he wins it.
