Benoit, Althusser, and Legacies

[Knapik]

I suppose the difference is Benoit was a hero. He was idolized and exalted. We (not I, but many) cried along with him when he won the World Championship. We were touched by him after Eddy died. We grew up watching and rooting for the guy. If Benoit had come up with some great theological ideas, his being a murderer wouldn't give those ideas any less value. You're comparing two separate things.

[GOODZILLA]

You don't hear anyone talking about the great legacy that Former NFL WR Rae Carruth left at the University of Colorado.

This is because he is a piece of shit who hired a hitman to kill his pregnant girlfriend. So that is how he will be remembered.
If he's even remembered at all.

[Hegemony]

I don't see it that way. In fact, I would argue that there would be more inclination to make the distinction between work and man for Benoit than Althusser, considering the emotional attachment many have to his character. By your rationale, the opposite would be true.

Edit - this is responding to Knapik's post, not the one about Carruth.

[Knapik]

I think you're way off. If someone says the earth is round (or a cultural theorist develops a theory) then kills their wife, it doesn't his statement (or thoughts) false. With our emotional attachment to Benoit (assuming wrestlers are our heros) there is a monumental difference involved. Benoit betrayed us, as selfish as this sounds. He betrayed the years of love we had for the man, the man being the wrestler... the inseperable 'Benoit'. Althusser did nothing FOR us. He provided us no emotional connection. He had an interesting theory. When Benoit murdered his familt he also severed the emotional connection he had with those who loved his work.

[Hegemony]

bad2begood said:

You don't hear anyone talking about the great legacy that Former NFL WR Rae Carruth left at the University of Colorado.

This is because he is a piece of shoot who hired a hitman to kill his pregnant girlfriend. So that is how he will be remembered.
If he's even remembered at all.

This is interesting as well, as it brings the question of what the benchmark is for one's professional legacy to counterbalance (if at all) negative acts or crimes committed at a later date.

Obviously for many, Carruth had not established a legacy in the NFL that could overcome the stigma of his crime.

Further, I wonder if Benoit is different from guys like Althusser or NFL players in that he played a character rather than himself. People became attached to that character rather than the person, and I wonder if this facilitates any of the possible reactions people are having at this time.

[Hegemony]

knapik said:

I think you're way off. If someone says the earth is round (or a cultural theorist develops a theory) then kills their wife, it doesn't his statement (or thoughts) false. With our emotional attachment to Benoit (assuming wrestlers are our heros) there is a monumental difference involved. Benoit betrayed us, as selfish as this sounds. He betrayed the years of love we had for the man, the man being the wrestler... the inseperable 'Benoit'. Althusser did nothing FOR us. He provided us no emotional connection. He had an interesting theory. When Benoit murdered his familt he also severed the emotional connection he had with those who loved his work.

Very interesting, although I still maintain that this emotional connection should facilitate some sort of forgiveness or pity rather than the cold response one would give to a man who committed a crime that they had no previous connection to.

I have no training in psychology or anything, but I am just thinking through my hands at this point. Interesting stuff.

[Darth Turkish]

knapik said:

I think you're way off. If someone says the earth is round (or a cultural theorist develops a theory) then kills their wife, it doesn't his statement (or thoughts) false. With our emotional attachment to Benoit (assuming wrestlers are our heros) there is a monumental difference involved. Benoit betrayed us, as selfish as this sounds. He betrayed the years of love we had for the man, the man being the wrestler... the inseperable 'Benoit'. Althusser did nothing FOR us. He provided us no emotional connection. He had an interesting theory. When Benoit murdered his familt he also severed the emotional connection he had with those who loved his work.

I agree with the betrayal. People cared about him, especially since he seemed to be a "decent" guy. Nobody gave a sh!tt about Althusser, just his ideas.

[Knapik]

I think the feeling of being betrayed and being bitter - along with a smattering of guilt for some who liked the guy - is far stronger than the urge to forgive would be.

[Hegemony]

turkish said:

knapik said:

I think you're way off. If someone says the earth is round (or a cultural theorist develops a theory) then kills their wife, it doesn't his statement (or thoughts) false. With our emotional attachment to Benoit (assuming wrestlers are our heros) there is a monumental difference involved. Benoit betrayed us, as selfish as this sounds. He betrayed the years of love we had for the man, the man being the wrestler... the inseperable 'Benoit'. Althusser did nothing FOR us. He provided us no emotional connection. He had an interesting theory. When Benoit murdered his familt he also severed the emotional connection he had with those who loved his work.

I agree with the betrayal. People cared about him, especially since he seemed to be a "decent" guy. Nobody gave a sh!tt about Althusser, just his ideas.

But as we have seen, none of his fans knew him, just as we don't know any one we are fans of. We may think we do, but it is an illusion. That distinction between knowing Benoit the performer and Benoit the human being is PRECISELY the distinction i am pointing to.

[GOODZILLA]

He killed his wife. He murdered his child. A 7 year old little boy. How anyone can sit here not even a week later and wonder why people aren't forgiving him or having pity for him blows my f'n mind.

[Knapik]

Dude, we all know he was an awesome wrestler. No one is saying he wasn't. People here are refusing to support his work because he did such an evil thing as Benoit the person.

[Knapik]

bad2begood said:

He killed his wife. He murdered his child. A 7 year old little boy. How anyone can sit here not even a week later and wonder why people aren't forgiving him or having pity for him blows my f'n mind.

Seriously.

[Hegemony]

knapik said:

I think the feeling of being betrayed and being bitter - along with a smattering of guilt for some who liked the guy - is far stronger than the urge to forgive would be.

Forgive, If I said it earlier, seems way too strong, so I agree with you. But wouldn't this emotional connection allow for the distinction between our memories of the public persona and the human being that we really didn't know at all?

And as many other fans seem to be doing in other Internet boards, wouldn't the urge to be to look for a cause that somehow takes some of the blame away from their fallen icon?

[Darth Turkish]

hegemony said:

knapik said:

I think you're way off. If someone says the earth is round (or a cultural theorist develops a theory) then kills their wife, it doesn't his statement (or thoughts) false. With our emotional attachment to Benoit (assuming wrestlers are our heros) there is a monumental difference involved. Benoit betrayed us, as selfish as this sounds. He betrayed the years of love we had for the man, the man being the wrestler... the inseperable 'Benoit'. Althusser did nothing FOR us. He provided us no emotional connection. He had an interesting theory. When Benoit murdered his familt he also severed the emotional connection he had with those who loved his work.

Very interesting, although I still maintain that this emotional connection should facilitate some sort of forgiveness or pity rather than the cold response one would give to a man who committed a crime that they had no previous connection to.

I have no training in psychology or anything, but I am just thinking through my hands at this point. Interesting stuff.

Most likely the "cold response" as you put it is an appropriate response for people who feel betrayed by someone they admired and cared for. Some may lessen their hatred towards him as time wears on to a point of truthfully not caring (like most of us with OJ Simpson), or being able to broach the subject and discuss it with less emotional attachment.

Others will hold onto the betrayal for the rest of their lives.

Is there a "right" or "wrong" with any of these responses? No, not really. People need to find their own comfort during such horriffic and senseless tragedies.

I think it will be very difficult to separate the man form the legacy he had. In the end, he let us down. Big Time.

Humans are pretty forgiving creatures, but there are just some things that cannot be forgiven.

[Knapik]

We all wanted it to be Nancy that was the killer. We found out that was not the case. People on other boards can hope and pray and be a Benoit apologist, but I won't be joining that club.

[Hegemony]

knapik said:

We all wanted it to be Nancy that was the killer. We found out that was not the case. People on other boards can hope and pray and be a Benoit apologist, but I won't be joining that club.

Which is both fascinating and frightening at the same time. The thing about Nancy, not your opinion on the tragedy.

[Hegemony]

And for the record, this debate over betrayal and forgiveness is about hypothetical fans. I am not saying I feel that he deserves forgiveness, but have seen that argument around the Net in a few cases.

[Darth Turkish]

hegemony said:

knapik said:

I think the feeling of being betrayed and being bitter - along with a smattering of guilt for some who liked the guy - is far stronger than the urge to forgive would be.

Forgive, If I said it earlier, seems way too strong, so I agree with you. But wouldn't this emotional connection allow for the distinction between our memories of the public persona and the human being that we really didn't know at all?

And as many other fans seem to be doing in other Internet boards, wouldn't the urge to be to look for a cause that somehow takes some of the blame away from their fallen icon?

I think because he let us down, we feel stupid for liking him. I do. And I am pretty bitter about that.

I think we have all tried, at one point or another, to find a way to blame our fallen hero less, and in many cases we come up short. So, if a roid rage, he kills he wife? Why then his son a day later; a son he supposedly "put on a pedestal"? Chemical imbalance or not, he still killed people. Rational at the time, probably not, but he should have realized his losing control and left.
Benoit's wrestling career, as great as it was, as many honors accorded to him, will always end with the footnote of how his life ended.

[Joe]

A few points regarding Hegemony's various comments:

The attention and interest in the Benoit thread had died down. At last look, the page count was at 26. Last night, when I went to bed around 1, it was at 24. I don't recall the number of views, but the posting had decreased significantly from where it was earlier in the day.

By bringing up Austin, Hegemony, you made yourself sound like an idiot. This is akin to the guy who is real impressed by OJ Mayo and says Mayo reminds him of " a young" LeBron James. The exaggeration kills all credibility, which has been a trait of Hege's in the past.

For those who remember the story as it happened, Austin walked out of the WWE on Monday night. The following Saturday, WWE ran their "Confidential" special which was basically an hour's worth of "Austin really f'd up." The Monday or Tuesday after the show aired, it is reported that police came to the Austin household and that Debra had been either slapped or hit.

Now, since we're all speculating about what happened in the Benoit home, I'm going to attempt to delve into the Austin household for a moment.

Roughly, Tuesday through Saturday of that week, Debra bitches and moans at her husband for walking off his job. By Saturday night, after hearing not only his wife call him an idiot, but much of the WWE roster do the same, not to mention the whole, "took his ball and went home" thing, Austin snaps, slaps his wife upside the head and tells her to shut up because he is tired of hearing all this.

Am I excusing what Austin did or saying it was the right thing to do? Hell, no.

Am I saying that what Benoit did was a million times worse and the actions of the two men should never again be compared or mentioned in the same sentence? Absolutely.

For the record, I think it is a very strong possibility that Benoit may not have woke up, decided to murder his family and then carried out said plot with malicious intent. However, his wife and son are still dead at his hands, and at the end of the day, that is really all that matters.

[Knapik]

hegemony said:

knapik said:

We all wanted it to be Nancy that was the killer. We found out that was not the case. People on other boards can hope and pray and be a Benoit apologist, but I won't be joining that club.

Which is both fascinating and frightening at the same time. The thing about Nancy, not your opinion on the tragedy.

Its frightening, for sure. Very selfish of those of us who felt that way.