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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 27, 2007 14:55:59 GMT -5
Fact: If Chris Benoit had John Cena's workrate Hegemony wouldn't be posting this. Thank God it wasn't Bryan Danielson or the post would have been ten times more ridiculous. Disgusting. Fact: you need to look up the definition of the word "fact". Fact: I thought you didn't want to talk about this. |
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Post by Knapik on Jun 27, 2007 14:56:34 GMT -5
Whether or not the man was evil (and I said that at some point he surely wasn't, though how could I know?) what he did was terribly evil. So evil that I can never be a fan of his work. Some things are just that heinous, and saying "Oh c'mon guys" doesn't make me feel bad for hating him for what he did.
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 27, 2007 14:56:46 GMT -5
Fact: If Chris Benoit had John Cena's workrate Hegemony wouldn't be posting this. Thank God it wasn't Bryan Danielson or the post would have been ten times more ridiculous. Disgusting. Not so, as this is grossly putting words in my mouth. The point is whether any one's contributions are dismissed if they commit horrible acts or not. I am simply saying that for me, I hope to separate Benoit the man who killed his family and Benoit the professional wrestler. I may or may not be able to do this down teh road, but like Althusser I think it is worth the effort. You and others here obviously disagree. But at least we can discuss without flaming, or am I wrong here? |
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Post by Aquinas on Jun 27, 2007 14:58:23 GMT -5
This is (probably) the last post I will make about Chris Benoit on this forum. And I do so because I respect Hegemony's opinions.
I considered Chris Benoit one of the greatest wrestlers ever. He entertained me countless times and made everyone he wrestled look good. He won many titles.
But none of that matters one damn bit now. I will never look at anything he did and think anything else other than, "That piece of sh*t suffocated his little boy and choked his wife to death, then bailed out of this world". I give him zero credit.
O.J. Simpson accomplished a great deal on the football field, but that doesn't matter for squat to me either, because he killed his ex-wife and her friend. I go out of my way to avoid even seeing clips of him, and I view any mention of him in a football context with scorn.
Chris Benoit worked very very hard to establish a legendary legacy in the ring -- and by his own disgusting, horrific actions, he sh*t on that legacy and it deserves to be dead and buried along with his sorry a$$. I will never even consider him when speaking of the greatest wrestlers.
So, no, I can't separate the two, and I will never apologize for it. He can rot in hell, and I hope he is. There is no circumstance that can be conjured up, mental illness or otherwise, to even begin to excuse what he did.
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Post by Knapik on Jun 27, 2007 14:58:32 GMT -5
I don't think less of you for feeling this way, Hegemony, but there is no way it is worth the effort.
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 27, 2007 14:59:08 GMT -5
But at least we can discuss without flaming, or am I wrong here? Let's hear it for rhetorical quesitons. |
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Post by Dragon Breath on Jun 27, 2007 15:00:38 GMT -5
This is (probably) the last post I will make about Chris Benoit on this forum. And I do so because I respect Hegemony's opinions. I considered Chris Benoit one of the greatest wrestlers ever. He entertained me countless times and made everyone he wrestled look good. He won many titles. But none of that matters one damn bit now. I will never look at anything he did and think anything else other than, "That piece of sh*t suffocated his little boy and choked his wife to death, then bailed out of this world". I give him zero credit. O.J. Simpson accomplished a great deal on the football field, but that doesn't matter for squat to me either, because he killed his ex-wife and her friend. I go out of my way to avoid even seeing clips of him, and I view any mention of him in a football context as scorn. Chris Benoit worked very very hard to establish a legendary legacy in the ring -- and by his own disgusting, horrific actions, he sh*t on that legacy and it deserves to be dead and buried along with his sorry a$$. I will never even consider him when speaking of the greatest wrestlers. So, no, I can't separate the two, and I will never apologize for it. He can rot in hell, and I hope he is. There is no circumstance that can be conjured up, mental illness or otherwise, to even begin to excuse what he did. Well said, I feel exactly the same way. |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 27, 2007 15:02:07 GMT -5
Please note I am not criticizing any one for not separating Benoit the performer and the killer, but I think this is a question that we are all facing today and into the future, and although I may disagree to an extent i can definitely see every one's point.
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Post by mft on Jun 27, 2007 15:03:26 GMT -5
Tied for the posts of the week. I'll give you a call next time you're defending a child killer. Fact: If Chris Benoit had John Cena's workrate Hegemony wouldn't be posting this. Thank God it wasn't Bryan Danielson or the post would have been ten times more ridiculous. Disgusting. |
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Post by dukedave on Jun 27, 2007 15:07:14 GMT -5
This is (probably) the last post I will make about Chris Benoit on this forum. And I do so because I respect Hegemony's opinions. I considered Chris Benoit one of the greatest wrestlers ever. He entertained me countless times and made everyone he wrestled look good. He won many titles. But none of that matters one damn bit now. I will never look at anything he did and think anything else other than, "That piece of sh*t suffocated his little boy and choked his wife to death, then bailed out of this world". I give him zero credit. O.J. Simpson accomplished a great deal on the football field, but that doesn't matter for squat to me either, because he killed his ex-wife and her friend. I go out of my way to avoid even seeing clips of him, and I view any mention of him in a football context with scorn. Chris Benoit worked very very hard to establish a legendary legacy in the ring -- and by his own disgusting, horrific actions, he sh*t on that legacy and it deserves to be dead and buried along with his sorry a$$. I will never even consider him when speaking of the greatest wrestlers. So, no, I can't separate the two, and I will never apologize for it. He can rot in hell, and I hope he is. There is no circumstance that can be conjured up, mental illness or otherwise, to even begin to excuse what he did. Keep making good posts like this and you'll get kicked out of the list. |
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Post by BDS on Jun 27, 2007 15:08:46 GMT -5
When do you separate "sick" from "evil?" Why do you bother separating the two? Can you separate them?
I'm sure there is, somewhere, an explanation for what Chris Benoit did. Maybe Chris Nowinski is right, and his brain was scrambled from too many bumps. Maybe he was driven mad by the pharmaceuticals coursing through his veins. Maybe he took one too many short jokes from Kevin Nash over the years, and something was said that set him off. I'm sure that if people dig deep enough, there's some root cause to be found.
Who fucking cares.
Chris Benoit bound his wife at the hands and feet before strangling her to death with a cord. He suffocated his seven-year-old son, and allegedly he'd been injecting him with HGH because he thought he was too small. If you're not enraged by those things, it's only because you don't have children.
I hope to make it to heaven when I'm done here. I hope to meet the Benoits there - all of them. Until that time, though, I'd rather not even hear the name of Chris Benoit again. He was a remarkable wrestler, and he was a murderer, and I just can't separate the two.
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Post by swarm on Jun 27, 2007 15:08:50 GMT -5
Chris Benoit worked very very hard to establish a legendary legacy in the ring -- and by his own disgusting, horrific actions, he sh*t on that legacy and it deserves to be dead and buried along with his sorry a$$. I will never even consider him when speaking of the greatest wrestlers. So, no, I can't separate the two, and I will never apologize for it. He can rot in hell, and I hope he is. There is no circumstance that can be conjured up, mental illness or otherwise, to even begin to excuse what he did. |
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Post by dukedave on Jun 27, 2007 15:12:12 GMT -5
If you're not enraged by those things, it's only because you don't have children. . I don't have kids. Is it OK if I'm enraged. |
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 27, 2007 15:13:39 GMT -5
"That piece of sh*t suffocated his little boy and choked his wife to death, then bailed out of this world". Out of curiosity... what should someone do at that point? If, for whatever god-forsaken reason, someone kills their wife and son, what are the available options left? I have a low opinion of suicides in general, and I have an even lower opinion of murder-suicides that are clearly premeditated (Columbine, etc.), but this is like the one situation where I can completely understand "bailing out". Of course, I'm operating under the assumption of "temporary insanity" here. |
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Post by BDS on Jun 27, 2007 15:14:01 GMT -5
If you're not enraged by those things, it's only because you don't have children. . I don't have kids. Is it OK if I'm enraged. Logic 101 dictates that your rage doesn't have any connection to what I said, so yes. |
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Post by Tournament Master on Jun 27, 2007 15:18:30 GMT -5
If you're not enraged by those things, it's only because you don't have children. . I don't have kids. Is it OK if I'm enraged. I think that is fine. You are a rational human being (generally). |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 27, 2007 15:24:07 GMT -5
The OJ Simpson comparison equally brings up interesting questions and thoughts.
If I were to list the ten best running backs in NFL history, I would probably include Simpson on such a list. However, I would not include him on a list of great human beings or people I admire.
Similarly, Benoit would still be on my list of great wrestling performers, but would obviously fail to make a list of great men. But I wouldn't have included him on such a list before the events of this past week, much less now.
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Post by BDS on Jun 27, 2007 15:30:00 GMT -5
Chris Benoit was undeniably one of the greatest technical wrestlers in this business' history. But when you start talking about his "legacy" as opposed to his place in the ranks of ring technicians, that's an entirely different field. Chris Benoit died a monster, and fair or not, a large majority of people (myself included) are going to remember him that way. His legacy is going to be a black stain on this business - one that stands out among many others, which is saying a whole lot.
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Post by daytondave on Jun 27, 2007 15:30:06 GMT -5
9. a toilet brush 10. Paris Hilton STRONG! |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 27, 2007 15:33:25 GMT -5
Do you think his "legacy" would be different if substantial changes to the wrestling industry result from the tragedies of this weekend?
I hoped that when Guerrero died that we would see a dramatic shift in the looks of performers, their mental and physical health, etc., but it did not come to pass. What if it took a tragedy such as this to force changes to occur?
Obviously this is pure speculation, but interesting nonetheless.
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