Benoit, Althusser, and Legacies

[Hegemony]

joe said:

A few points regarding Hegemony's various comments:

The attention and interest in the Benoit thread had died down. At last look, the page count was at 26. Last night, when I went to bed around 1, it was at 24. I don't recall the number of views, but the posting had decreased significantly from where it was earlier in the day.

By bringing up Austin, Hegemony, you made yourself sound like an idiot. This is akin to the guy who is real impressed by OJ Mayo and says Mayo reminds him of " a young" LeBron James. The exaggeration kills all credibility, which has been a trait of Hege's in the past.

For those who remember the story as it happened, Austin walked out of the WWE on Monday night. The following Saturday, WWE ran their "Confidential" special which was basically an hour's worth of "Austin really f'd up." The Monday or Tuesday after the show aired, it is reported that police came to the Austin household and that Debra had been either slapped or hit.

Now, since we're all speculating about what happened in the Benoit home, I'm going to attempt to delve into the Austin household for a moment.

Roughly, Tuesday through Saturday of that week, Debra whiners and moans at her husband for walking off his job. By Saturday night, after hearing not only his wife call him an idiot, but much of the WWE roster do the same, not to mention the whole, "took his ball and went home" thing, Austin snaps, slaps his wife upside the head and tells her to shut up because he is tired of hearing all this.

Am I excusing what Austin did or saying it was the right thing to do? Hell, no.

Am I saying that what Benoit did was a million times worse and the actions of the two men should never again be compared or mentioned in the same sentence? Absolutely.

For the record, I think it is a very strong possibility that Benoit may not have woke up, decided to murder his family and then carried out said plot with malicious intent. However, his wife and son are still dead at his hands, and at the end of the day, that is really all that matters.

Who are you to start creating a hierarchy of what is and is not acceptable behaior?

Austin hitting his wife is wrong, even if it isn't murder. When we create hierarchies we often give free passes to crimes that don't deserve it.

And regardless, many fans were able to look at Austin's shortcomings as a human and enjoy his wrestling persona, which is simply the question I posed to hte board.

Debra herself came out with a statement today concerning Austin, steroids, and domestic abuse. Look it up.

And to point to previous exaggerations without any specific evidence is sloppy.

And thanks for hijacking what had recently been a good, intelligent discussion with your personal vendetta.

[Hegemony]

knapik said:

hegemony said:

Which is both fascinating and frightening at the same time. The thing about Nancy, not your opinion on the tragedy.

Its frightening, for sure. Very selfish of those of us who felt that way.

Not that it is or isn't selfish, but rather that we hoped it would make it all somehow a little bit better.

[GOODZILLA]

Joe didn't create a hierarchy of crimes.

He stated a fact: slapping a woman is not comparable to murdering your family.

[Hegemony]

bad2begood said:

Joe didn't create a hierarchy of crimes.

He stated a fact: slapping a woman is not comparable to murdering your family.

But when placed together they obviously make domestic abuse seem trivial, which it is not.

[Dragon Breath]

hegemony said:

joe said:

A few points regarding Hegemony's various comments:

The attention and interest in the Benoit thread had died down. At last look, the page count was at 26. Last night, when I went to bed around 1, it was at 24. I don't recall the number of views, but the posting had decreased significantly from where it was earlier in the day.

By bringing up Austin, Hegemony, you made yourself sound like an idiot. This is akin to the guy who is real impressed by OJ Mayo and says Mayo reminds him of " a young" LeBron James. The exaggeration kills all credibility, which has been a trait of Hege's in the past.

For those who remember the story as it happened, Austin walked out of the WWE on Monday night. The following Saturday, WWE ran their "Confidential" special which was basically an hour's worth of "Austin really f'd up." The Monday or Tuesday after the show aired, it is reported that police came to the Austin household and that Debra had been either slapped or hit.

Now, since we're all speculating about what happened in the Benoit home, I'm going to attempt to delve into the Austin household for a moment.

Roughly, Tuesday through Saturday of that week, Debra whiners and moans at her husband for walking off his job. By Saturday night, after hearing not only his wife call him an idiot, but much of the WWE roster do the same, not to mention the whole, "took his ball and went home" thing, Austin snaps, slaps his wife upside the head and tells her to shut up because he is tired of hearing all this.

Am I excusing what Austin did or saying it was the right thing to do? Hell, no.

Am I saying that what Benoit did was a million times worse and the actions of the two men should never again be compared or mentioned in the same sentence? Absolutely.

For the record, I think it is a very strong possibility that Benoit may not have woke up, decided to murder his family and then carried out said plot with malicious intent. However, his wife and son are still dead at his hands, and at the end of the day, that is really all that matters.

Who are you to start creating a hierarchy of what is and is not acceptable behaior?

Austin hitting his wife is wrong, even if it isn't murder. When we create hierarchies we often give free passes to crimes that don't deserve it.

And regardless, many fans were able to look at Austin's shortcomings as a human and enjoy his wrestling persona, which is simply the question I posed to hte board.

Debra herself came out with a statement today concerning Austin, steroids, and domestic abuse. Look it up.

And to point to previous exaggerations without any specific evidence is sloppy.

And thanks for hijacking what had recently been a good, intelligent discussion with your personal vendetta.

You're inability to comprehend what other people post is astonishing.

Joe clearly stated what Austin did was wrong in his post.

Are you ready?

Hitting your wife (or anyone for that matter) is wrong.

Killing your wife and child (or anyone for that matter) is wrong.

Killing your wife and child is far worse than hitting your wife. Go ask a bunch of people whether they would rather be hit or killed. Let me know what you find out.

Maybe you could give it a rest for a bit. Maybe you could spend some time on Marxist boards comparing Benoit and a Commie.

[BDS]

hegemony said:

And regardless, many fans were able to look at Austin's shortcomings as a human and enjoy his wrestling persona, which is simply the question I posed to hte board.

There has to be some sense of scale in the infractions, Hegemony. Austin hit Debra, Benoit killed his son - one of those things is significantly more forgettable than the other, at least in my book. Neither action can ever be undone, but what Austin did can at least be atoned for in this world.

[Hegemony]

True, there are scales, but what about the fact that there are numerous seedy figures in hte wrestling industry. We can excuse thier sins and make the distinction between human and performer.

The whole point is whether this will ever be possible for Benoit. I would like to think that at some point the distinciton can be made, without forgiving him of his sins.

[GOODZILLA]

I have never rooted for or fondly recalled a murderer.

Or if I have, I sure as hell wasn't aware of it.

[Hegemony]

bad2begood said:

I have never rooted for or fondly recalled a murderer.

Or if I have, I sure as hell wasn't aware of it.

Fair enough, you think there is no way to distinguish. But your opinion is not the only one, as there are plenty of posters I have seen that do argue for making a distinction, just apparently not on this particular board.

[Joe]

hegemony said:

Who are you to start creating a hierarchy of what is and is not acceptable behaior?

Austin hitting his wife is wrong, even if it isn't murder. When we create hierarchies we often give free passes to crimes that don't deserve it.

And regardless, many fans were able to look at Austin's shortcomings as a human and enjoy his wrestling persona, which is simply the question I posed to hte board.

Debra herself came out with a statement today concerning Austin, steroids, and domestic abuse. Look it up.

And to point to previous exaggerations without any specific evidence is sloppy.

And thanks for hijacking what had recently been a good, intelligent discussion with your personal vendetta.

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=WWE&action=display&thread=1179832274&page=1

Above is a link to an example of how you kill your credibility.

Anyone who wants to read it can do so. For those who don't, Hegemony made a rather sloppy statement, I ate his ass up behind it, then he came back with a long, drawn-out and windy version of, "that's not what I meant," even though he clearly did. It would have been so much nicer had he simply said, "Good point, Joe. I misspoke."

As for who I am to "start creating a hierarchy of what is and is not acceptable behavior," I did not know I was doing that.

I thought I pretty much said there was no excuse for slapping or hitting a woman. That is considered unacceptable behavior. Unforgivable or unforgettable, that is a different story, but it is certainly unacceptable.

Killing a person, regardless of gender or relation, is all three. Sorry, Hege, but these are not rules that I created. That set of values was already in place long before either of us ever got to this earth.

For the record, I have no personal vendetta against Hegemony and I did not mean to hijack his thread.

[Matt]

hegemony said:

bad2begood said:

Joe didn't create a hierarchy of crimes.

He stated a fact: slapping a woman is not comparable to murdering your family.

But when placed together they obviously make domestic abuse seem trivial, which it is not.

And for the record, the Detroit posse has in this thread called me an idiot and disgusting. Thanks for the contribution guys.

I haven't said a word to you, but the simple fact that you can't see the difference between a slap and murder pretty much says it for me.

[Chris Ingersoll]

I cleaned up a lot of the petty bickering in this thread. Probably not all of it; mostly stuff that had been posted since my last post.

[Joe]

hegemony said:

Yes you sure ate my butt up.
Again, this is merely opinion, and we can agree to disagree, as I fail to remember you ever "eating my butt" in a debate. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, go right ahead and believe it.

Others said the same thing, and not just members of the Detroit Posse. It wasn't a hard debate to win, though, if it makes you feel any better.

hegemony said:

And as for the hijacking, well, I can't say I didn;t expect it from one of the usual suspects.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean I have a tendency to let conversations flow naturally, even if that means veering away from the original topic, then yes, guilty as charged. However, if memory serves me, it was you who threw Austin's name out first.

[Hegemony]

joe said:

hegemony said:

Yes you sure ate my butt up.
Again, this is merely opinion, and we can agree to disagree, as I fail to remember you ever "eating my butt" in a debate. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, go right ahead and believe it.

Others said the same thing, and not just members of the Detroit Posse. It wasn't a hard debate to win, though, if it makes you feel any better.

hegemony said:

And as for the hijacking, well, I can't say I didn;t expect it from one of the usual suspects.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean I have a tendency to let conversations flow naturally, even if that means veering away from the original topic, then yes, guilty as charged. However, if memory serves me, it was you who threw Austin's name out first.

Your contribution to htis thread is duly noted, and certainly appreciated.

And the fact that you can so expertly "sum up" my posts and claim you ate my butt is as laughable as it is sad.

[Dragon Breath]

admin said:

I cleaned up a lot of the petty bickering in this thread. Probably not all of it; mostly stuff that had been posted since my last post.

The odds of this thread serving any real purpose is pretty much zero at this point. Maybe you could just go ahead and lock it.

[Dave]

I do not post as often on this board as I should. I mostly lurk around these boards reading the posts and I try to stay out of the petty skirmishes between the Detroit Posse and their rivals at the moment. However, this in one battle that I will comment on. Hegemony states that the wrestling legacy of Beniot can be separated from his murders and that Beniot should be forgiven. He, also, compared Austin' slap to his wife to Beniot killing his wife and child. My first comment is that the wrestling legacy of Beniot cannot be seperated from the murders. A lot of other people on this board has stated that they cannot watch a Beniot match without thinking about the terrible thing Beniot has done. Hegemony, do you know the terrible thing Beniot did? Do you understand the ramifications of what Beniot did? Do you even have children? You clearly do not understand the significance of killing another person and especially a 7-year-old.Hegemony, you may have forgiven Beniot for what he has done, but I have not. I can forgive a lot of transgressions giving enough time. However, child molesters and anyone who purposely kills a child are not transgressions that I can forgive. hegemony states that the Austin domestic violence incident bis equal to Beniots domestic violence. There are major differences between the two cases. Debra was able to leave Austin and get on with her life. Hopefully, the Texas rattlesnake learned to keep his hands to himself from this case of domestic violence.. Beniot, on the other hand, KILLED his wife. That means, I am gonna be blunt here, Nancy was not able to get away from the abuse. For Debra, the slapping by Austin was bad, but she was able to get away the abuse and start her life over. For Nancy, the only better life is in heaven because she is no longer here. The option to began anew is not there for Nancy. Hegemony, you suggest that what both Austin and Beniot did was equally bad. In reality, Debra was able to restart her life and hopefully, a much happier one. Nancy, on the other hand, is not restating her life in this world.! I will grant you that Debra has bad memories of her relationship with Austin, but at-least Debra is still alive This post is long and very winded, but I hope that Hegomony finally understands the horrible thing that Beniot did.

[ThePunisher]

Interesting ideas on both sides of the fence. I can relate to both in some ways.

Before that though, everyone here keeps on putting emphasis on the murder of a child. And although it is commonplace to believe children are the embodiment of innocence, would it have really made things any less heinous if it were simply the murder of his wife? Murder is murder no matter who you kill. Even yourself. You have no right to deprive others who care for you of yourself. Strike one, strike two and strike three, Crippler.

Anyways, this whole separation business of Benoit's actions from last weekend and his prior in-ring accomplishments is perilous territory. On one hand you can't help but feel human and feel betrayed by someone who you considered to be a hero or a role-model. But by the same token you can look back and realize that there is nothing wrong with how you felt about him in the past because he was that hero before all this hit the fan. It is likely impossible to separate how you can feel about him from this point on but the past has an identity of its own and you can't help but remember the joy from his World title win. It is a difficult memory at least for me by the duality of past and present.

What Benoit was I will always remember. But just as other pro athletes such as OJ (Carruth, that guy who played for the Nets- Williams(?) or McGwire (Canseco, Palmeiro, Giambi, etc.) there is the present. The same situation goes for others as well just on smaller scales of morality judgments. Benoit is a murderer. When I watch him or see his name all I can think is "damn, what a way to ruin everything." His OLP theme music (one track I used to listen to while working out) plays over and over in my head while I sit in complete disbelief of the way things turned. But I'm sure all of this was the last thing on his mind over the past weekend. And hopefully none of us will ever have to know the things that were going through his head.

I guess to conclude my ideas on this tragic situation, I'll point out the obvious that all three of those who are gone and the rest of us are human. We all have faults. Some have more than others and some are more severe in nature. It is human for us to be angry, disappointed and lack the ability to forgive and forget. I can only hope that after all of each of our trials, successes, failures and sins, we can leave the screwed up human experience behind and rise above it to a simplier existence.

[Knapik]

hegemony said:

knapik said:

Its frightening, for sure. Very selfish of those of us who felt that way.

Not that it is or isn't selfish, but rather that we hoped it would make it all somehow a little bit better.

I know what you meant, dude. Thats exactly what I meant by selfish. Its selfish of us to want her to be the killer, because that would make it better for us.

[jefft]

So...

Who likes pie?

[BDS]

Pie is delicious.