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Post by dukedave on Jun 28, 2007 7:50:19 GMT -5
He plays for the Cubs so he must suck. |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 28, 2007 11:11:43 GMT -5
Hegemony states that the wrestling legacy of Beniot can be separated from his murders and that Beniot should be forgiven. Dave, The first part of your statement is what I was attempting to express, most certainly not the second. Any statement about "forgiveness" was purely hypothetical on my part and pertaining to hypothetical fans. My apologies if this was not clearly conveyed on my part, as this is an obviously difficult time to be a fan of pro-wrestling. As for the comparison to Austin, or Althusser and OJ for that matter, was simply to point to examples of distinguishing between personal and professional figures. I don't think hitting a woman is as awful as killing a child (or any one for that matter), but they are still crimes that forced many fans to make a distinction. Obviously Benoit now serves as the limit case for this distinction, and I was simply wondering if it will ever be possible to view his career separately from this tragedy. |
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Post by offspring515 on Jun 28, 2007 11:11:53 GMT -5
Something I wrote about Benoit as a way to get my own emotions about it out and "on paper". It touches on the "man/performer" divide, so I figured I'd share it with you guys.
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The cowboy was so heroic. The small boy sat and watched in wide eyed wonder as the brave image of the mighty hero flickered across the movie screen. The cowboy rode his horse into battle, fighting off the bad guys and saving the day. The cowboy represented, in the mind of that boy, all that was good and right with the world. He wanted to be the cowboy when he grew up.
The boy would grow up, and his love of the cowboy would change. He would notice the nuances in the cowboys acting, the strength brought to the character, the cowboy's stunt work. He would find himself admiring a strange amalgamation of the character and the man playing the character. But he loved him none the less.
If you held a gun to the boy's head he'd admit that the cowboy was his hero. He looked up to him. He respected him. He loved him, though he might not use that word to describe the feeling.
The boy sat watching, watching the cowboy right wrongs and save the damsel in distress. But then something went wrong. The movie was playing just the way it always had one moment, but then the next everything fell apart. The cowboy wasn't saving the day...he was ruining it. The cowboy turned his six shooter on the damsel in distress. And then on the child he was charged with protecting.
And then, as the boy sat watching in horror, the cowboy turned the six shooter on himself, and fired away.
When the credits rolled things got worse and worse. The boy sat and watched as everything the cowboy had stood for, everything the boy had believed, came crashing down around him. When the screen went black the boy sat alone and cried.
It's commonly said that heroes do not die, they simply fade away. The boy learned that day, that dark day, that heroes can die. Not the man who played the cowboy. He was no hero. He was a coward, a monster. But the cowboy himself. He'd always been a hero to that boy. And on that day, the hero died.
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 28, 2007 11:46:48 GMT -5
I fail to see how that's a similar situation, but that might be me misinterpreting your meaning.
What I read, and correct me if I'm mistaken somewhere here, was "the cowboy in the movie became a horrific villian before taking his own life". That doesn't affect the man playing the cowboy in any way, nor does it change any of the previous movies in which he played the hero.
If you meant that the actor really committed those acts and somehow "the movie" was still produced (or else why were credits rolling?), then that still doesn't make any sense to me.
What I'm ultimately taking from that is "boy cannot distinguish reality from fiction." Somehow I don't think that's the message you were going for...
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Post by Tournament Master on Jun 28, 2007 12:13:02 GMT -5
The odds of this thread serving any real purpose is pretty much zero at this point. Not true...it more firmly established Hegemony as the biggest heel in the GWFZ. Well...maybe next to Symbiote. |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 28, 2007 12:14:27 GMT -5
The odds of this thread serving any real purpose is pretty much zero at this point. Not true...it more firmly established Hegemony as the biggest heel in the GWFZ. Well...maybe next to Symbiote. That was most certainly not my intention. |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 28, 2007 12:20:31 GMT -5
And I still maintain that these are very important questions in light of the Benoit murders. With WWE removing all record of his existence (obviously understandable) and fans commenting on Benoit's legacy as a professional wrestler (JRs Blog comments) or debating this exact issue of distinguishing between the person adn the professional(F4Wonline), I simply wanted to broach the subject with teh COTG community.
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Post by Wildfire on Jun 28, 2007 12:44:47 GMT -5
Not true...it more firmly established Hegemony as the biggest heel in the GWFZ. Well...maybe next to Symbiote. That was most certainly not my intention. And the insinuation is borderline inflammatory. That's a compliment.. you were TRYING to be a heel during the board rumble, IIRC. |
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 28, 2007 12:45:55 GMT -5
That was most certainly not my intention. And the insinuation is borderline inflammatory. That's a compliment.. you were TRYING to be a heel during the board rumble, IIRC. True, but to use this tragedy for cheap heat is both absurd and disgusting. |
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Post by Darth Turkish on Jun 28, 2007 13:00:10 GMT -5
And I still maintain that these are very important questions in light of the Benoit murders. With WWE removing all record of his existence (obviously understandable) and fans commenting on Benoit's legacy as a professional wrestler (JRs Blog comments) or debating this exact issue of distinguishing between the person adn the professional(F4Wonline), I simply wanted to broach the subject with teh COTG community. You have posed the question, and it seems to have been answered several times by different members. It seems that you are now in a more of a "devil's advocate" role, just asking questions to evoke some thought and response. The thing is, people are apparently not really in the mood for a devil's advocate. All that has resulted is name calling, barbs and angered and hurt fellings. I think the topic question has been answered adequately. Good topic, but Time to move on. |
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Post by Tournament Master on Jun 28, 2007 13:02:26 GMT -5
I apologize for the insinuation. I was just trying to (poorly) make light of a bitter discussion. I know you weren't trying for cheap heat Hegemony, and I perfectly understand the viewpoint you are coming from. As for my viewpoint on the situation, I just don't know yet...
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 28, 2007 13:25:43 GMT -5
The thing is, people are apparently not really in the mood for a devil's advocate. All that has resulted is name calling, barbs and angered and hurt fellings. Which is fine and totally understandible, except nobody is making them respond with the name calling and barbs. If you don't want to disucuss this right now, then please don't. |
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Post by Joe on Jun 28, 2007 14:09:37 GMT -5
The thing is, people are apparently not really in the mood for a devil's advocate. All that has resulted is name calling, barbs and angered and hurt fellings. Which is fine and totally understandible, except nobody is making them respond with the name calling and barbs. If you don't want to disucuss this right now, then please don't. This is all fine and good in theory, or about a lot of random, pointless stuff that, at day's end, is completely inconsequential. This is not one of those subject or one of those situations. Hegemony, who I have publicly and privately stated that I have no personal problem with, broached a hugely sensitive subject at an inopportune time. I am sure even he knew he would invoke some very heated responses. To tell people to just shut up and don't respond if the responses are going to be angry is uncalled for, and to expect them to do so is naive. |
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Jun 28, 2007 15:06:06 GMT -5
To tell people to just shut up and don't respond if the responses are going to be angry is uncalled for, and to expect them to do so is naive. Naive perhaps, but not uncalled for. If you don't want to talk about it, then don't talk about it. What part of that is uncalled for? |
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Post by offspring515 on Jun 28, 2007 15:50:11 GMT -5
This probably wasn't the place to post my cowboy story. It was more about my feelings on it than trying to make some huge statement about right or wrong.
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Post by Dragon Breath on Jun 28, 2007 15:51:26 GMT -5
To tell people to just shut up and don't respond if the responses are going to be angry is uncalled for, and to expect them to do so is naive. Naive perhaps, but not uncalled for. If you don't want to talk about it, then don't talk about it. What part of that is uncalled for? I'm confident that you are fully aware of the strong emotional responses that have been shared by a very deep cross section of this board. You have been asked several times to lock the thread. You have decided that this is not necessary, instead you selectively edit inappropriate posts. I fully understand this and do not have any problem with your decision whatsoever. I also understand that if I did have a problem with this, I'm pretty much SOL. However, you can't have it both ways. If the thread is worthy to be kept open and discussed, than those of us that are angered by (speaking for myself at least) what appears to be either 1. An absurdly diminished sense of the value of human life. or 2. Posting for no other purpose than to raise the ire of a large cross section of the board. should be permitted to vent their frustration in this thread, provided they do it in a manner consistent with the board's code of conduct. edited to fix typo's |
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Post by ravenkai on Jun 28, 2007 16:44:50 GMT -5
I feel if you liked Benoit as a wrestler and person before there should be nothing changing. I feel he was a good person and wrestler. He is and always will be one my favs in the wrestling world. I do not, I repeat I DO NOT think he killed his family. I believe it was a set up or frame up for him. He adored his son and would do anything he could for me. I think if you stop liking him from the gossip in the papers who are only printing stuf to sell there papers... I believe he is innocent ... this is my veiw...
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Post by Hegemony on Jun 28, 2007 16:55:59 GMT -5
Naive perhaps, but not uncalled for. If you don't want to talk about it, then don't talk about it. What part of that is uncalled for? I'm confident that you are fully aware of the strong emotional responses that have been shared by a very deep cross section of this board. You have been asked several times to lock the thread. You have decided that this is not necessary, instead you selectively edit inappropriate posts. I fully understand this and do not have any problem with your decision whatsoever. I also understand that if I did have a problem with this, I'm pretty much SOL. However, you can't have it both ways. If the thread is worthy to be kept open and discussed, than those of us that are angered by (speaking for myself at least) what appears to be either 1. An absurdly diminished sense of the value of human life. or 2. Posting for no other purpose than to raise the ire of a large cross section of the board. should be permitted to vent their frustration in this thread, provided they do it in a manner consistent with the board's code of conduct. edited to fix typo's Like it or not, these issues are being discussed in numerous places across the Internet, and I think they merit discussion here. To suggest that I am trying to simply raise the ire of other community members for my own amusement or am diminishing human life is either greatly ignoring the argument itself or accusing me of being a pretty wretched person. If you are accusing me of this then please address me via PM. |
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Post by Matt on Jun 28, 2007 16:58:54 GMT -5
I feel if you liked Benoit as a wrestler and person before there should be nothing changing. I feel he was a good person and wrestler. He is and always will be one my favs in the wrestling world. I do not, I repeat I DO NOT think he killed his family. I believe it was a set up or frame up for him. He adored his son and would do anything he could for me. I think if you stop liking him from the gossip in the papers who are only printing stuf to sell there papers... I believe he is innocent ... this is my veiw... Um.... |
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Post by Dragon Breath on Jun 28, 2007 16:59:22 GMT -5
I'm confident that you are fully aware of the strong emotional responses that have been shared by a very deep cross section of this board. You have been asked several times to lock the thread. You have decided that this is not necessary, instead you selectively edit inappropriate posts. I fully understand this and do not have any problem with your decision whatsoever. I also understand that if I did have a problem with this, I'm pretty much SOL. However, you can't have it both ways. If the thread is worthy to be kept open and discussed, than those of us that are angered by (speaking for myself at least) what appears to be either 1. An absurdly diminished sense of the value of human life. or 2. Posting for no other purpose than to raise the ire of a large cross section of the board. should be permitted to vent their frustration in this thread, provided they do it in a manner consistent with the board's code of conduct. edited to fix typo's Like it or not, these issues are being discussed in numerous places across the Internet, and I think they merit discussion here. To suggest that I am trying to simply raise the ire of other community members for my own amusement or am diminishing human life is either greatly ignoring the argument itself or accusing me of being a pretty wretched person. If you are accusing me of this then please address me via PM. I have no interest in discussing anything with you via PM. |
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IPPON!!
