|
|
Post by cakejedi on Mar 10, 2007 13:07:08 GMT -5
If Wrestlings Finest utilizes real life wrestlers, I would be interested in knowing if the creator got permission from the wrestlers to use them in the game. To make money off of a person without their consent would be "shady". We know that Tom goes out of his way to make sure he has the permission of the wrestlers he uses in LOW. He doesn't use the real names, he just uses the initials or something like that. Thanks for the clarification. I guess that is one way around the legal issues. As an aspiring writer, I am very sensitive to copyright and intellectual property issues. |
|
|
|
Post by Tournament Master on Mar 10, 2007 15:24:06 GMT -5
Goos review Chris, interesting to see the plus and minuses of the game vs. COTG/LOW. To me the most important things are customizability and ease of use, plus I am more into booking and storylines than technical matches in my wrestling (not that I can't appreciate a 5 star match), so for me COTG is the way to go. But I could definately see people who are more into the artistry of the sport giving it a chance and liking it.
I'm sure that if the WF creator wanted to run it more as a business than a hobby, he could. I'm sure that the high entry barrier hurts him from getting people who might like the product a try. But then again, expanding the business, could get him into some copyright messes, which may be much more of a headache than its worth.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joe on Mar 10, 2007 18:36:56 GMT -5
I had no desire to respond to this thread until I read Mino's post about the game, or more so, his part about this board and its community.
There was one comment that said it "sounds" like the game "sucks." That is one person's opinion, as he clearly pointed out that he gathered the opinion from what was said, by the owner no less, about WF.
That is not exactly a firestorm of criticism.
Furthermore, it ridiculous to assume that Tommy Vogel would have been treated harshly had he chosen to post here. I can't see why he would choose to, seeing as how this board has nothing to do with Wrestling's Finest. I understand why he would post on the Deuce, though, seeing how, at this point, it is not actually a COTG board.
As for the game itself, it does not sound overly appealing to me, at least based on opinions of the creator and a player. It does sound too complicated, and I don't see a real upside in making a pro wrestling board game extremely difficult to comprehend.
I have no opinion on WF's creator as a person, but a couple of his comments I thought sounded kind of silly. The one comment that almost made me reply by itself was the one about the price of the game being a reflection (i.e. compensation for) of all the years he spent watching pro wrestling in the 1980s.
Sorry, that is a lame rationale. If I created a college basketball board game tomorrow and charged $70 bucks a piece for an envelope full of playing cards with nothing but stats and a few instructions on them, and my main two reasons for the outrageous price was because I was afraid people wouldn't get it and that I wanted to be compensated for two decades worth of watching a sport that I love, I would fully expect to be called a clown and be told that my game sucked.
It is safe to assume that Tommy Vogel was a big wrestling fan, then came up with his game, not the other way around. Therefore, the idea of compensation for the hours spent watching wrestling is kind of dumb.
|
|
|
|
Post by swarm on Mar 10, 2007 20:30:06 GMT -5
If Wrestlings Finest utilizes real life wrestlers, I would be interested in knowing if the creator got permission from the wrestlers to use them in the game. To make money off of a person without their consent would be "shady". We know that Tom goes out of his way to make sure he has the permission of the wrestlers he uses in LOW. He doesn't use the real names, he just uses the initials or something like that. That is totally fucking stupid and low level. I wouldn't pay 10 bucks for crap like that. |
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Mar 11, 2007 2:04:10 GMT -5
Personally, I think it is kinda silly to stand in judgement over the game when not very many of you have even SEEN the game, much less played it. Sure, you can say you won't buy it due to the price, and that is completely justified. But to post that the game "obviously" sucks, when not many of you have even seen it....that, to me, is just silly. Chris Good review and rebuttal, Chris. For the record, I would like to point out that my criticisms of the game come from playing the demo and also from a considerable amount of time spent on the WF forums researching the game. That would be the kind of thing I do before embarking on a $70 purchase. In the end, I did not buy WF for the reasons I listed on my earlier thread. Since a good portion of your rebuttal can be traced directly back to comments in my post, I wanted to clarify that I've never said WF sucked and I have actually played a demo of the game. While others on this board do fit into the stereotype of ill-informed haters, I would not care to be lumped into that group simply because my post is referenced following a paragraph characterizing WF detractors on this forum as ill-mannered and ill-informed. I am neither in this case. Your comments about realism in the simulation of a wrestling match are valid. WF definitely had things I liked about it. I said as much in my earlier post, shortly following the criticisms you've rebutted. But in the end WF didn't have enough of what I wanted in a wrestling game and had too much I felt I didn't need. I think the game system is very neat. As my earlier post shows, WF inspired me to adapt my own LOW gameplay. What I play now is a hybrid of the two game systems, allowing me to have as close to the best of both worlds as I could have, while still retaining what I like about LOW. I have all the customizability and fast-paced play of LOW. But I also have the equivalent of FAC with playing cards, the ability to backtrack through the action with said playing cards and my own set of LOW-specific Strategy Cards which add even more excitement to the game. I brought enough of WF home from the forums and demos that it's difficult to support any statement that characterizes me as being either ill-informed or dismissive of the game. Sure, what I play is more of a "highlight reel" than WF. But at this juncture in my life, it's what I need. I don't have enough time to invest in a heavy simulation game but I certainly appreciate the appeal. I used to love the APBA sports games when I was younger, but now the idea of spending 4 hours playing any sort of game is a luxury I am not afforded. |
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Mar 11, 2007 2:09:33 GMT -5
He doesn't use the real names, he just uses the initials or something like that. IIRC, it isn't initials. It's something like the first letter of each name is shifted up one. So, "Hulk Hogan" would be "Iulk Iogan" or something like that. My memory could be failing me. Or I could be confusing WF with another wrestling game on this point. But that sounds right. To be fair, that's pretty standard in the table-top sports game cottage industry. I own a few games that do this for football or baseball teams. But, having said that, the fact that Tom goes through such effort to get the wrestler's in LOW's permission was a big sell for me. I felt it was a very classy move on his part and respect him for going that extra mile. Not to detract from Tommy V, though. What he's doing is a fairly accepted standard. What Tom is doing is above-and-beyond. That's all I was trying to point out. |
|
|
|
Post by stephenvegas on Mar 11, 2007 2:48:40 GMT -5
He doesn't use the real names, he just uses the initials or something like that. IIRC, it isn't initials. It's something like the first letter of each name is shifted up one. So, "Hulk Hogan" would be "Iulk Iogan" or something like that. My memory could be failing me. Or I could be confusing WF with another wrestling game on this point. But that sounds right. To be fair, that's pretty standard in the table-top sports game cottage industry. I own a few games that do this for football or baseball teams. But, having said that, the fact that Tom goes through such effort to get the wrestler's in LOW's permission was a big sell for me. I felt it was a very classy move on his part and respect him for going that extra mile. Not to detract from Tommy V, though. What he's doing is a fairly accepted standard. What Tom is doing is above-and-beyond. That's all I was trying to point out. Lulk Logan?   So while me and everyone else who plays LOW are using the Road Warriors, people who play Wrestling's "Finest" are using something called the Noad Narriors, or the Moad Marriors, or the Koad Karriors or whatever the hell they call them? Westling's Finest really does not interest me at all. I will play keep playing LOW. |
|
|
|
Post by offspring515 on Mar 11, 2007 9:47:01 GMT -5
This is way off topic but what the heck...
In the mid 90's APBA released a basketball game. Just like their baseball game you had player cards and special charts for certain actions. My dad and I had run an ABPA baseball league for years, and loved it. So when the basketball version came out my dad, knowing that I was a huge basketball fan, bought it for me right off.
It was given to me as a birthday present, and I was so psyched. My dad and I loved playing board games of any type, but we especially loved ones that let us play out a season or a fed. That's why we loved APBA Baseball and the GWF. We divided up the teams and made up a schedule. And then, we set out to play our first game.
About 2 minutes into the game I realized that the game mechanics...well...they sucked. Unlike Baseball, which fit the ABPA game system like a glove, APBA basketball played very, very, very slowly....and very clunky. After 2 and a half hours we had finished the first quarter of a game. That's right, it would have taken roughly 10 hours to play ONE game. Sure, maybe once we picked up the rules a little bit more it would have gone faster, but it was still ridiculously slow.
Beyond that, the mechanics of the game were very lame. Every time you wanted to pass the ball you had to roll for the guy passing, check his card, roll for the opponent trying to steal the ball, check his card, roll for the guy recieving the pass, check his card....it was ridiculously complicated! It got to the point where instead of passing you'd just hand the ball to your star player and let him take a shot!
And so, having played only one quarter of a game, my dad and I came to the harsh realization that for us, APBA basketball did indeed suck.
And THAT is the feeling I had when I played the online demo of this game. No offense to anyone else, and I'll readily admit that maybe I just didn't "get it" but to me, it was needlessly complex, and not a whole lot of fun.
On a funny side note, APBA was doing a phone survey about the new game, calling people who ordered it to get their opinions on it. When they called our house my dad talked to the guy for about 20 minutes, telling him everything that was wrong with the game. The guy laughed a little and told my dad that he'd heard the same complaints hundreds of times already. He said they were going to redo the game and "revamp" the gameplay mechanics. I'm not sure if they ever did, and to be honest I'd be afraid to give another game like that a try after that experience. It was honestly that bad.
|
|
|
|
Post by steelthunder814 on Mar 11, 2007 12:02:04 GMT -5
i used to play in an APBA baseball league pick in the day...i loved it...have no time for it now but very realistic stuff..Offy did u ever try football?...I might be interested in that someday
|
|
|
|
Post by offspring515 on Mar 11, 2007 15:43:28 GMT -5
No, my dad and I were going to try their football game, but we ended up buying another football card game. I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called though. I remember we didnt like it much and didt play too often.
|
|
|
|
Post by sickman on Mar 11, 2007 15:48:55 GMT -5
Actually what they do for the names is they leave off the middle letters of the name. For instance R c F r = Ric Flair.
|
|
|
|
Post by steelthunder814 on Mar 11, 2007 19:30:31 GMT -5
W o o!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Tournament Master on Mar 11, 2007 21:35:53 GMT -5
LMAO....or should I say L O |
|
|
|
Post by steelthunder814 on Mar 11, 2007 21:42:43 GMT -5
This actually reminds me of a math problem i did back in the 8th grade...It had wrestlers Bulk Logan and Body Viper doing something...thought the names were funny...i really enoy when mainstreamers attempt to infuse wrestling in their plans...it just winds up a lump of coal in a diamond mine
|
|
|
|
Post by Allensh on Apr 19, 2007 23:25:10 GMT -5
I think the guy is kinda shady, to be honest... If he truly just wanted to share his game with 'hardcore gamers' or whatever, he could post everything in PDFs on Tabletop Sports or other simiar sites, and use the guys real names, since he wouldn't be profiting from it. Its fine to think his system is worth $70, but don't tell me your not trying to make money. I spent a lot of time talkign to Tommy Vogel about his game, which I did own and sold to someone (I still have the computer version). He is not shady. He doesn't have a lot of money and doesn't want to get caught up in licensing issues, and I can understand that. He also is right when he says the game is complex. with over 300 Fast Action cards to print up and charts. In the long run, I decided I did not like the board game that much but it has its rabid fans who run territories and make up stories for their feuds and such...sounds like another game I know  I can certainly understand people preferring LOW - I do - but please don't cast aspersions on Tommy's character. He really is a very nice guy. Allen |
|
|
|
Post by Wildfire on Apr 20, 2007 19:21:27 GMT -5
I' wasn't trying to say anything about whether or not he was a nice guy...
but if what he's doing using trademarked names and (perhaps)
likenesses to make money, that's against the law. You can certainly be a nice guy and break the law.
And no amount of discussion will convince me that a bunch of cards and charts need $70 to cover production costs.. as I said, ther are plenty of outlets where he could distribute his game for free if it was truly a 'labor of love'
|
|
|
|
Post by Knapik on Apr 20, 2007 21:08:14 GMT -5
LOWcreations is a "labor of love" and is 100% free despite hundreds of hours of work. Nothing wrong with wanting to make money off hard work, but just doesn't feel right to me when I'm using trademarked likenesses... and I want as many people to enjoy my stuff as possible. (/tooting own horn)
|
|
|
|
Post by Wildfire on Apr 24, 2007 12:16:31 GMT -5
Exactly! My point was the guy SAID those same things you said, but then charged lots of money.
@ offspring: I was MASSIVELY dissappointed in APBA Basketball back in the day.. its odd, since their baseball game is awesome do to its simplicity, that they basketball game would be so opposite. I've often thought it might work on the computer though.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allensh on May 13, 2007 14:37:56 GMT -5
Exactly! My point was the guy SAID those same things you said, but then charged lots of money. @ offspring: I was MASSIVELY dissappointed in APBA Basketball back in the day.. its odd, since their baseball game is awesome do to its simplicity, that they basketball game would be so opposite. I've often thought it might work on the computer though. APBA actually had two basketball games..the first one was released in the 70's and played EVEN SLOWER than the later onje as it tried to duplicate every nuance of floor play. The second one actually had three versions in one box; the Basic version was just a shooting contest; and the others tried to bring in other stats. APBA baseball is a simple game for a reason..the "creator" of APBA actually brought back an older game called National Pastime created by a Clifford Van Beek and patented in 1925. The patent had expired by the time Richard Seitz resurrected the game with some improvements (a system for pitchers, columns reflecting different fielding abilities, etc.) As you might guess, I'm an APBA fan. Played in a football league for almost 10 years. APBA's hockey game is pretty good, as it avoids the problems their basketball game had. Allen |
|
|
|
Post by Wildfire on May 14, 2007 11:35:22 GMT -5
Yeah, its the later one I had... I remember looking at the basic game and thinking I could make up better myself on the fly  The advanced game was an interesting concept, with the floor areas, and seemed designed to play a single game more than a season, which is not what I'm looking ofr (I'm a stat guy) Agreed APBA baseball is the best... I've been playing a homebwrewed 1967 AL season off and on from Tabletop I haven't seen the Hockey game, but I've heard good things from alot of people.. not much of a Hockey guy myself. I even own their bowling game, which is kinda fun for something different. I'd love to see them do a Soccer game. |
|
