Filsinger games "competition".

[offspring515]

Well, I've never admitted this before, but I consider you guys friends.

I was tempted by another wrestling board game once.

It was late, and I hadn't "rolled the dice" in a long, long time. I was jonesing for some action, and I needed it bad. I walked up and down the lonely streets of Lincoln Park, Michigan searching for a fix. And then I saw it, sitting alone on the corner of the game shelf.

It was a simple, silly game, but I liked that. COTG and I had been together so long, and I would always love COTG...I just wanted something fun to take my mind off of things for a night or two. So I picked up the box, cradled it lovingly in my arms, and took it to the register. When it was rang up I was happy to see that it was indeed a cheap thrill.

So we tore back to my place, and I ripped into the box. I wont lie, I was not gentle like I usually am when that COTG envelope shows up in my mailbox. I was like an animal. I spilled forth the contents of the box onto my bed and gave the simple rules a quick read through. With just one look I knew I was ready.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I didn't last long. While my passion for wrestling games was strong, this game just didn't fulfill me the way COTG always had. It felt cheap, and poorly constructed. Sure I had some fun, but it was hollow. After only a few minutes I quickly finished the match and rolled over to sleep.

In the morning the game was gone, perhaps I'd risen in the night and thrown it away. I didn't mind. I felt guilty all that day, thinking about my tawdry adventure the night before. I was ashamed of myself for straying from the one I loved. And it was at that moment that I knew, there was only one place where I could get all the action that I craved. I lovingly pulled out my shoebox of GWF wrestlers and spent the day lavishing attention on them.

So in a way, by straying I stengthened the bonds of true love. I learned a valuable lesson that night. Other games may come and go. Some might come in fancier packages, some might have bigger features, and some might be willing to do things that COTG refuses to do....but at the end of the day you'll never find a love like the first one.

[steelthunder814]

You should have began with..."I can't believe this actually happened to me!"

[Werner Mueck]

Offspring, you're a sicko!

[Trent Lawless]

Coming with your next GWF Promoter, "Offspring's COTG Forum."

But that was funny...

[bmurderh8s]

From what I've heard, the game sounds like it is a really good sim of wrestling and the matches flow very well.

Maybe a few years ago I would of been interested, but these days I just don't have the time nor the energy to devote a lot of time to learning complicated rules and long playing times.

COTG is quick and easy, and although I will admit, it's not the "best" wrestling sim ever, it's able to capture just enough about what I love about pro wrestling to make it enjoyable. There is a certain beauty in the COTG mechanics...and that is it's simplicity. And despite that simplicity, the mechanics still allow you to costumize the hell out of it. Which is very appealing to me.

Plus COTG is far more affordable than WF, although I have spent far more money on COTG throughout my years promoting than the $70 Tommy is asking for. Tom's asking prize lends itself more to the average costumer. It's the great service and quality product that hook you and keep you coming back for more. I just don't have room in my life for another tabletop wrestling game.

And BTW, wrestling is actually very complicated. A lot goes into making a match good. I'm not even going to bother to get into it on here, so nevermind. ;D

[bmurderh8s]

offspring515 said:

Well, I've never admitted this before, but I consider you guys friends.

I was tempted by another wrestling board game once.

It was late, and I hadn't "rolled the dice" in a long, long time. I was jonesing for some action, and I needed it bad. I walked up and down the lonely streets of Lincoln Park, Michigan searching for a fix. And then I saw it, sitting alone on the corner of the game shelf.

It was a simple, silly game, but I liked that. COTG and I had been together so long, and I would always love COTG...I just wanted something fun to take my mind off of things for a night or two. So I picked up the box, cradled it lovingly in my arms, and took it to the register. When it was rang up I was happy to see that it was indeed a cheap thrill.

So we tore back to my place, and I ripped into the box. I wont lie, I was not gentle like I usually am when that COTG envelope shows up in my mailbox. I was like an animal. I spilled forth the contents of the box onto my bed and gave the simple rules a quick read through. With just one look I knew I was ready.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I didn't last long. While my passion for wrestling games was strong, this game just didn't fulfill me the way COTG always had. It felt cheap, and poorly constructed. Sure I had some fun, but it was hollow. After only a few minutes I quickly finished the match and rolled over to sleep.

In the morning the game was gone, perhaps I'd risen in the night and thrown it away. I didn't mind. I felt guilty all that day, thinking about my tawdry adventure the night before. I was ashamed of myself for straying from the one I loved. And it was at that moment that I knew, there was only one place where I could get all the action that I craved. I lovingly pulled out my shoebox of GWF wrestlers and spent the day lavishing attention on them.

So in a way, by straying I stengthened the bonds of true love. I learned a valuable lesson that night. Other games may come and go. Some might come in fancier packages, some might have bigger features, and some might be willing to do things that COTG refuses to do....but at the end of the day you'll never find a love like the first one.

This is kinda disturbing. I don't know why though.

Don't worry Offspring, I still thought it was funny.

[offspring515]

Funny?

I was being completely serious fellows!

I think part of the beauty of pro wrestling is that it can be enjoyed on many levels. You can put on a match and a 5 year old can watch it and understand that the good guy needs to beat the bad guy. You can put on that same match, and a smarkity smark smark like one of us can enjoy how well the babyface is selling the shoulder, and how crisp the heel's strikes are. Simple, complicated....just an awesome form of entertainment all around.

As to this game, I downloaded the demo and I must say that I was befuddled in about 20 seconds. I'm pretty stupid, so that's not unusual, but I think it may be too hardcore for me.

[smathis]

WF is pretty involved. In his defense, Tommy isn't aiming at the casual gamer. His target audience are hardcore Sim grognards. About 20 years ago -- when I had time and fewer responsibilities -- I would have probably loved this game.

As to your post, I got the point but its presentation as a Red Shoe Diary of tabletop wrestling cracked me up. It was a very funny post. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way. It was a great post in either case.

If it wasn't so long, I'd put it in my sig.

[offspring515]

No, it was a joke. I'm not sure what brought that on....in all honesty the events described never happened. Well...at least not with a wrestling game.

Heyoooooooooooooooooo!

[Darth Turkish]

Offspring, I felt dirty reading that.

Like a voyuer.

[Tournament Master]

Offspring...best...post...ever. In the words of Larry the Cable Guy, I don't care who your are, that's funny right there.

I can understand the desrire for a more complex game than COTG for the realism aspect of the matches. But I am more into the storylines and less into the mechanics. As some people can atest to, I don't even pay attention to the moves as I play, just the finish. COTG is perfect for me.

[Pete Beck]

Holy Crap Offspring!!! Talk about a lonely night!!!

Now i know why i have been voting you "boot" the last few rounds of the BMR...

[offspring515]

Because you fear the unknown Pete. And my awesomeness levels are so high that nobody knows what will happen when I win. But I shall win.

[Minotaur]

I was not going to respond about this here, since I responded over on the Deuce....and since I had already put up my own personal "review" of the game several months ago (http://cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=video&action=display&thread=1125901252) on these boards. But....the more I tried to not say something, the more I thought about it....

Personally, I think it is kinda silly to stand in judgement over the game when not very many of you have even SEEN the game, much less played it. Sure, you can say you won't buy it due to the price, and that is completely justified. But to post that the game "obviously" sucks, when not many of you have even seen it....that, to me, is just silly.

Tommy Vogel was decent and friendly answering questions that ppl were asking (criticizing is more like it, I think). I am just glad that the thread on the other boards didn't fall into a total idiocy flamefest (like I am sure would have happened if he came here to answer questions).

I have been a member of the cotg community since around 1990 or so....I have been with cotg for just as long as some of you (not as long as some, but longer than others). And if what I am saying here is going to get me banned, then that is just another step in the direction that I have been going for awhile now anyways. CotG is a great game....the game engine "fits" the style of game that Tom has made. Tom Filsinger is an awesome guy....I have met and spoken to him. He is the real deal. Like I said, CotG is a great game. But that same engine, for me, does not work in Legends of Wrestling. With CotG, we have formed our own individual thoughts on what Thantos looks like in the ring....how Star Warrior wrestles....the antics of so many other characters during a match. But with LoW, I just don't feel the stuff that makes a match comes across for the specific wrestler.

But, CotG and LoW are two different entities, simply using the same game engine. That works for many of you....but for me, it didn't, and though I have tried several times, it never does. Does that make LoW "obviously suck"? No...it just isn't for me (though, CotG will always have a place in my heart). What do I feel that LoW is missing? The MATCHES. Sure, you can still have Nick Bockwinkel and Bruiser Brody wrestle....a match taking place is not The Match, though.

See, to me, a wrestling match is more than two guys doing moves. The style of the CHARACTER comes into place. A Ric Flair match would not be a Ric Flair match if Flair didn't put his CHARACTER into it. The same for Hogan...for Andre....for Race....for any of the past greats. The characters these guys became is what MADE the matches. I was lost...I wanted to relive those old feelings from my time in the 80s watching great wrestling. But, LoW, sadly, just wasn't doing it.

Then I stumbled upon Wrestlings Finest. And the strange thing is, I came across that game through a link from these boards. Wrestlings Finest gives me the MATCHES. Not just two guys doing suplexes and figure fours. No, the characters STYLE shines in the match. And the number of things that can happen...to the way the matches themselves flow. To me, Wrestlings Finest shines in the area of doing the matches in a way that LoW can never do. (again, this is not a jab at Tom...I have the utmost respect for Tom, just cannot get into LoW). To me, LoW is more like a highlight reel than the match. Wrestlings Finest is The Match.

But what makes Wrestlings Finest what I actually want in a wrestling game? There are just too many things to mention them all. How blood works in the game....how the wrestler cards interact with each other, and the charts. The flow of the match. The strategy cards used. The way the tag teams are done (will speak on this in a bit). How foriegn objects are handled. How the cards themselves are done. How a 120 lbs wrestler cannot bodyslam a guy that is a 400 lb monster. How each wrestler is rated on how often he will bleed, or get DQ'd, or pin, or submit. Speaking of pinfall/submissions, the way it is handled in the game is pure genius, in my opinion. The fatigue system. The "old school" feel of the matches. The way that wrestlers tire out (try having Ultimate Warrior go for a 60 minute marathon vs. Flair or Thesz). The wrestlers strengths and weaknesses are realized. How Specialty Moves are done (and countered). How managers interact in the matches (Miss Elizabeth will not get involved nearly as much, and definetly not in the same way, as Jim Cornette will). How fighting out of the ring (primarily, bodyslams, piledrivers, and suplexes) is handled. How strong a wrestlers "defense" skill can come into play. How a wrestlers ring savvy, or wisdom, can come into play (number of starting Strategy Cards, and the likely hood of the wrestler somehow kicking out when it should be completely over). How illegal pins are handled. Forced errors and experience can come into play. Big list....but there are so many more things about the game that I love.

Now, about the tag teams. At first, I really didn't think I would like how the tag teams are done. But, it grew on me. Sure, it is not an easy thing to put two guys together that were never a tag team...but it CAN be done. I have done it. But to me, tag team wrestling should really be two guys that wrestle as one. A "unit" so to speak. Wrestlings Finest does this, in a way that works. It is kinda hard to figure at first, but like the singles portion of the game, once you get it figured out, it is smooth. The tag team system is actaully not just simply "tacked" on, like a poster from above mentioned. It may have been at first...but Tommy Vogel had invested plenty of time to make it a viable part of the game. And he succeeded. And now the tag team portion is also included in the pc version.

Some things that may cause ppl to not care for the game...

It is complex. But, if you give it time and dig into the engine and see how it works, the complexity is actually simple. Simple Complexity. There is more to wrestling than two guys doing wrestling moves. There is the story in the ring. Sure, someone loses, while someone wins....but what happens between the ropes that caused one guy to win, and the other to lose? WF fleshes that out superbly.

Cusomizibility. The game is not friendly to customizing the rules and wrestlers. That is a BIG draw to CotG and LoW. House Rules are a mainstay in CotG. But, with WF, it would be very difficult to customize the game engine. It is almost a "What you get is what you get" type thing. But, the game engine works so well....and the wrestlers are so spot on....I haven't seen any real need to house rule anything.

The price. This has already been discussed...so I am not going to say anything about it, other than: To me, it is more than worth the price.

The "duplicates" of some wrestlers. Someone mentioned that the number of wrestlers are misleading due to some of them being simple heel or face cards. But....Hulk Hogan wrestled completely different as a face, than he did as a heel. Same with Andre. Or practically any other wrestler that had a reputation during his career for being a great heel AND face. There are also versions of some wrestlers that did well in Japan (Brody, for example). But, as far as duplicates go....what was all the fuss about wanting Tom Filsginger to put out more than one version of Ted DiBiase? Or Jimmy Valiant? Tom can "criticized" for the same thing, so I don't think it is very fair to jump on Tommy Vogel for this.

In the end, this is just my thoughts. I know that most, if any, will not want to give this a chance. And even if you did, you would be so biased, that no matter how much you DID enjoy WF, CotG is the king, and WF "obviously" sucks. That is ok....I don't expect any less, really. I just wanted to get my opinion out about it, and to defend a great game. Both CotG/LoW and WF really cannot be comparable. They are both VERY different games. Sure, Wrestling Wars was a copy of CotG....but WF is as far from it as you can get. Unless being a wrestling game warrants being a copy of CotG. The only thing CotG/LoW and WF have in common is that they are wrestling games. Oh...and I happen to like both CotG and WF.

Chris

[bmurderh8s]

I get where you are coming from Chris. Though I think peoples' main beef with WF is the low end production values. When compared against the COTG production values, it's really no contest. People want fancy pictures drawn by professional artists to go along with their rated wrestlers. A lot of folks often look to style over substance when deciding to buy a product like a tabletop game. At least as far as first impressions go.

But it does sound to me that Tommy has a great game mechanic going for him. And he should stick with it. He should also maybe invest in some quality artwork for his cards, I think that would help his cause significantly.

If you are arguing game mechanic vs. game mechanic, from what I hear, WF has COTG beat for realism. But as far as production values and accesibility go, COTG wins hands down.

So it's basically take your pick. If you are more interested in a realistic sim, then WF is the way to go. if you would rather have a simpler game that is easy to learn and fun to play, then go with COTG.

It's apples and oranges people. You can't go wrong with either one.

[bmurderh8s]

Real quick, your broad statements about bias and flaming are unfair to most of us who are members of this board. Those comments are based on only a very few people on this board and I often get annoyed when people from outside this board label everyone on here based on that.

The mods on this board support COTG. Nuff said.

Other than that, good post Chris. I see your side clearly.

[cakejedi]

If Wrestlings Finest utilizes real life wrestlers, I would be interested in knowing if the creator got permission from the wrestlers to use them in the game. To make money off of a person without their consent would be "shady".

We know that Tom goes out of his way to make sure he has the permission of the wrestlers he uses in LOW.

[Mark 138]

It's not about artwork or overall look at all to me. I can get past that, if the thing is fun to play and offered at a price realitive to the overall quality of the product. I've played a lot of fun games that looked like crap, but were priced reasonably. But the ridiculous overstated attitide that anyone who won't OVERPAY for something just "wouldn't get it anyway" or that it's "too complex" for most people here, is just grating on my nerves.

Actually, the whole thing is taken from a sales gimmick called the "rich jerk" method right down to the letter. The deal is to take a product that is cheap to produce or obtain, then inflate the price several times over and make people feel inferior, less "cool, or whatever the pitch may be, for not paying the high price. They even go so far as to tell sellers to continually push their money back guarantee in the sales pitch, because most people are "too lazy" to act on it anyway.
This could be a coincidence, I don't really care either way. I'm just putting the facts out there.

I really was going to just let this go,best of luck to everyone, have fun with your games, and all of that. But the subject had to ressurected, and there are a few things in there I take as jabs looking for conflict where there is none, so there you go. So I guess now I'm "criticizing".

[bmurderh8s]

cakejedi said:

If Wrestlings Finest utilizes real life wrestlers, I would be interested in knowing if the creator got permission from the wrestlers to use them in the game. To make money off of a person without their consent would be "shady".

We know that Tom goes out of his way to make sure he has the permission of the wrestlers he uses in LOW.

He doesn't use the real names, he just uses the initials or something like that.

[Dragon Breath]

cakejedi said:

If Wrestlings Finest utilizes real life wrestlers, I would be interested in knowing if the creator got permission from the wrestlers to use them in the game. To make money off of a person without their consent would be "shady".

We know that Tom goes out of his way to make sure he has the permission of the wrestlers he uses in LOW.

FWIW, from what I gather, the computer version of Wrestlings Finest does the exact same thing as virtually every computer sport sim on the market.

They model real atheletes, use their real names, but do not use their likenesses. This is pretty much what Title Bout boxing, OOTP baseball and Front Office Football do as well. Of course, there are readily accessible and free unofficial image packs for all of the games that I listed.