Filsinger games "competition".

[Mark 138]

I'm sorry, I know I'm going to take heat for this, and it's going to seem like I'm "going heel" on this (which I'm not). But at the "other place" there's a discussion going on about another table top wrestling game some people are really enjoying. The trouble is, the guy is asking $70 for a printed set of rules and charts, and a disk full of files so a person could print the cards themselves. When asked to justify the price, the person responsible for the game posted the following:

First of all thanks for the discussion about Wrestlings Finest!!

I have heard nothing but great things about Tom's games and know several people that have played them over the years. I hope that it is OK for me to post here regarding WF but if it is inappropriate please delete this post. Tom's games and WF are very different with both serving different customers.

I understand the concern regarding the cost of Wrestlings Finest so let me try to explain a few things regarding the price.

1. If I was to print each and every wrestler the cost would be over $30 plus the shipping cost would go up by $10. The cost for me to keep the inventory on hand would be way to high. The cost of producing the game deals mostly with the fast action cards and shipping the game. Since I had to have many sets of charts, rules and fast action cards printed at once, the $70 cost helps cover my inventory costs.

2. Most customers have no desire to use all of the wrestlers. They choose to print out the ones they want to use.

3. As of now we are at 566 wrestlers,131 tag teams and 35 managers. As Chris mentioned all future ratings are emailed to whoever would like the set once the new set is ready at no extra charge.

4. A comment was made that maybe the designer needs to figure out whether he wants to sell a few games at $70 or a whole bunch more at a lower price. I have chosen to sell a few games at the higher price. The reason for this is that WF is a complicated game at first and as Chris mentioned the game is not for everyone. If the price was lower alot of people may buy the game more out of curiosity which is not something I am wanting to happen. Plus the cost of producing the game and offering it for $25 is not worth my time of running to the printer and then stopping to mail the game. I realize this probably hurts game sales but I am OK with this. If you are not a hardcore fan of wrestling especially from the 70's and 80's era, then WF is probably not for you.

5. I am the first to admit that WF is pretty basic when it comes to visual creativity. The strength of WF is the game engine and the realistic matches that occur. With WF you decide the angles and the feuds. There are no charts that tell you which direction to go or which wrestlers are feuding. It is up to the gamer to decide what should happen following the results of the matches. For some people this is a turnoff and I understand completely.

6. Probably the main reason for the high cost is that I am trying to steer the focus of WF to the PC version which is offered at a lower price ($49.99). The PC game is an exact replicate of the table top game. While I would much rather play table top games, my time is so limited that the PC game is game of choice right now. Plus it is a real time hassle to package the table top game up and then make a trip to the post office to mail it. I have had some thoughts about not selling the table top game anymore and only selling the PC game but since I still have many table top games on hand, I am not at that point yet.

Hope this answers some of the questions and concerns regarding WF. As Chris mentioned, WF is not for everyone but many people really enjoy the table top game. I can post a link to the Delphi Forum for discussions of people who have the game if it is OK to do so here but I will wait to get an OK before doing that.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

Tommy V

So there's a guy, from all accounts a decent guy, selling a game that he doesn't want people to buy for fear that they won't "get it". So he overcharges the few who will so he doesn't have to go to the post office and he can recoup his costs off the ones who actually really want to play his game.

This is yet another reason Filsinger Games has no real competition in the wrestling game world.

Again, sorry if this comes off as harsh. I know everyone's hyper-sensitive lately. I just thought some people would like to see what else is out there. The truth is, I really wanted to give this game a shot based on the good reviews. There's no way I can do that after reading this response. I work hard for my money and I can't see spending so much when the game producer himself admits it's too expensive but he doesn't want to do the legwork to get it out at a lower price.

[Tournament Master]

Thanks for the market research Mark.

[steelthunder814]

As Homer Simpson said once...I enjoy all the meats of our cultural stew(wrestling games in this case) but at $70 a pop...I'll go vegetarian with this one..Filsinger Games 4-Life!!!

[WTIC]

steelthunder814 said:

As Homer Simpson said once...I enjoy all the meats of our cultural stew(wrestling games in this case) but at $70 a pop...I'll go vegetarian with this one..Filsinger Games 4-Life!!!

AMEN!

[steelthunder814]

fav wrestling games in order(bear in mind these are ones ive played...I dont have an Xbox,PS2 or 3 and dont play games on the puter
1.COTG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2.Superstar Pro Wrestling game...R.I.P.(1987-2000)
3.NES Pro Wrestling...Long Live Giant Puma
4.Milton Bradley Wrestling Superstars
5.Handheld Wrestlemania game..Hogan vs. Andre sometimes Million Dollar Man would run very cheezy but very cool
6.NES Tag Team Wrestling

That's about all the good ones ive played over the years

[GalactiKing]

70 bucks.....yhessh......Filsinger for life.

[Wildfire]

I agree the price is riduculous.. how can you complain about inventory when you're selling PDFs?

OTOH, I see the appeal... CotG is designed to be a simple game, where the fun is in using and developing Tom's great characters.. I personally think the game mechanics are fun, but I LIKE simple. I can definately see where some people don't... its a simple game, and some people find that simple games leave out details that are VERY important.

The comparison I made on the Deuce is CoTG is like the APBA baseball games, where you can play quickly, have fun, and get good stats, but sometimes Barry Bonds might only hit 30 homers, sometimes he might him 90.. whereas if you play Strat-o-Matic he's pretty much gonna hit the 52 he's supposed to, but its gonna take a hour and a half to play one game.

I hadn't seen the post Mark quoted, but any guy whose trying to make money selling something that says its too much trouble to mail you his product is at best a poor business man, and at worst a complete moron. I would have considered checking this out before seeing that, if I came across it for a reasonable price, but that makes me really doubt ho a person with that little sense could create a good and complex game.

[Darth Turkish]

In a small business you need to be bold enough to lose money at first before you gain profit. This gentleman does not seem to want to do that. Tom, twenty years ago, was willing to do that and look where he is: the apex of the tabletop wrrestling card game market!

[smathis]

The price is prohibitive. I checked out WF for a while. Honestly, I was interested. The pitch is that the matches are a very realistic simulation of how the actual wrestler would perform. But I lost interest quickly due to the following factors...

1) The tag-team rules are an add-on. It's all designed for singles competition. Even the tag rules are just a mod of singles competition. You can't say, take Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair and make them a tag-team because WF doesn't have a tag card for them.

2) Even with hundreds of cards, WF still doesn't have half of the wrestlers I'd want. Most of the roster is focused on wrestlers from the '80s and '90s. So, no Skull Murphy here. Worse still, a significant proportion of the roster is just a Heel-Face version of a single wrestler. I'm not sure how you could consider yourself to have 500+ wrestlers when your roster has 4 or so versions of the Undertaker.

3) Making bootlegs for WF is much more difficult than LOW. So, again, no Skull Murphy. ;-(

4) WF's roster is essentially bootlegs. You get the wrestler's first and last initial and have to pretty well figure out who he is from there. Tom's roster has approval from the wrestler or his family. Tom also promotes wrestling history with a portion of the proceeds of LOW. His game is truly a tribute to these legends. That alone is enough to make me a loyal customer for life.

So, all these shortcomings at a price of $70. Granted, the sales pitch is that you get free new wrestlers for life. But, as I pointed out, the selection of wrestlers isn't really as broad as you might be led to believe. Pretty much if they were active between '85 and the present day, they're in WF. But finding some of the more "obscure" wrestling legends, which Tom and his team has been so good with, is not going to happen.

That said, there were some good points to the game system which I experienced having downloaded and played through the demo of the computer version.

1) Card resolution is nice. I'm not a fan of dice but, admittedly, this is a personal preference.
2) The Strategy Cards are the cornerstone of the system and probably the coolest thing it has going for it.

So, being the ever inventive whatzit that I am, I lifted both of these for use in my LOW game.

I use card resolution by taking two sets of playing cards with the same backs. I removed all cards except for Aces through Sixes. I left three jokers in. So now, I draw cards instead of rolling dice and use a 8 1/2 x 11 play mat that allows me to not only track how long a match is going for (a full row equals one minute) but that also allows me to replay action up to the last whole minute so that my recaps are more accurate.

I also created my own version of the Strategy Cards for LOW. Each card represents some action in the game like exercising the "(lv)" option on "down-3" or a tag-team using a double team. The cards take the place of all the advanced tag options and everything else that we normally have to keep track of in the normal rules, like Manager Interference and when a wrestler gets bloodied.

Best of all, I've made my Strategy Cards dual purposed so that a wrestler getting a card with a "Hot Tag" option on it in a Singles match could use the other option, such as ignoring a DQ roll, instead.

I haven't typed up the "rules" for using the cards yet because I've been uber-busy at work. But I've been testing the cards for about a month now and they're a pretty cool add-on. The benefit is that I don't have to keep track of how many double-teams or (lv) options and whatnot have been used. I've also been able to work in a lot of optional rules such as Champion's Advantage, Desperation , Hardcore and Blood n Guts rules and doing so has added zero overhead to my game.

Something I've also found cool about it is that every match is different. One match a tag-team may get no Pin Saves or in another match they get the dreaded "Heel Double Team" option on a card. Having two possible actions on the cards also makes for a nice twist on the strategy. Will the Heel champ turn in his Strategy Card for a Champion's advantage against a Pin or to bust open his opponent and gain the upper hand?

In any case, I need to write up the rules (about a page and a half) and PDF the whole thing. Once that's done, I'll gladly send out the cards to anyone interested in them. PM me if your interested. The more interest, the more pressure I'll feel to get this out the door.

[blueraider2]

in what way ?

[smathis]

blueraider2 said:

in what way ?

Not sure if this question is directed at my post or not. Sorry to answer a question with a question but can you clarify?

[Cosmic Crippler]

Way back in 2000-ish I picked this one up along with several other wrestling games (face to the mat, superstar). Back then in was 30 bucks but with less wrestlers.

First off, I think its like comparing apples to oranges when you compare LOW to this game. Like the above post said its going for a more of a simulation than the fast action game that is LOW. I for one prefer Tom's game mechanics. Though they arent super realistic, it gets the point across and is fast and extremely fun. Wrestling Finest is incredibly in depth. That being said I didnt really have a lot of fun playing it.

Despite my opinion the game does have a big fan base and also a PC version. Also in Tommy V's sense he is a very nice guy and was great with customer service. He also had nothing but great things to say about Tom Filsinger and his products.

From what he had told me wasnt trying to make money off te game, just sharing a fan made game he hade come uo with years ago. From someone who has "tried" to come up with original game mechanics, I think his product is pretty cool. Not my cup o tea, but still an impressive product.

So before I get lyched, I just want to say IM a COTG fan but I just wanted to give you guys another perspective on a classy guy (Tommy V) and his product.

[Mark 138]

Here's some more clarification on pricing of this game. I think this guy has good intentions and I'll let his latest reply on the Duece speak for it's self. I brought up the printing price again, then brought up the fact that most of the content is files on a disk and disks are less than a buck a piece these days. This is the response:

I understand what you are saying regarding the production costs but as I mentioned earlier, the costs are only part of the pricing process. I have invested thousands of hours in the 25 years the game has been developed and tested. I am not sure if you have seen a sample wrestler card but to rate a wrestler is very time consuming due to the great detail that goes into each wrestler. I have spent quite a bit of money on wrestling tapes/DVDs to make sure the wrestlers are rated as accurately as possible. WF is not a game where people can rate wrestlers quickly or easily. It is alot of work and takes countless matches to understand the rating process. Part of the price does have to do with the time I have invested in the game. The games biggest strength and biggest weakness is the complexity of the game. I feel it is a strength and that does factor in to my pricing. I honestly believe that WF is the most detailed game on the market today. Again I am not saying that WF is for everyone as there are some great games out there from Tom and others that serve different needs and wants when it comes to a wrestling game.

I guess my confusion is why you are so concerned with how much I am charging for the game. If you go to a store and want to buy a new stereo and the price is higher than you want to pay you probably won't buy it. The same thing applies to WF. If you think the price is to high then pass on purchasing the game. I am not forcing anyone to buy the game. I am simply asking a certain price for the game which I think is a fair price and whatever happens, happens. It sounds to me that if it was up to you the whole purpose would be to sell as many games as possible. You and I can agree to disagree on this. As mentioned before, I have discouraged many sales knowing that the person interested in buying the game would be wasting their money. Call this bad business is you want to but I am fine with my approach.

Basically, anyone who is buying the game is also paying for knowledge from 25 years of watching wrestling and for his tape library, in addition to printing costs. Also note that he states several times that the game is too complex for the common crowd and he often discourages people from buying so he will get his money back from charging more to the harcore gaming crowd who will really get the complexity of the game more than the casual crowd.

The entire thread can be found here:
cotg2.proboards57.com/index.cgi?board=g&action=display&thread=1172094337&page=3

[Wildfire]

I think the guy is kinda shady, to be honest... If he truly just wanted to share his game with 'hardcore gamers' or whatever, he could post everything in PDFs on Tabletop Sports or other simiar sites, and use the guys real names, since he wouldn't be profiting from it.

Its fine to think his system is worth $70, but don't tell me your not trying to make money.

[steelthunder814]

We live in a free market society...if u want to charge $70 for a game thats ur business but we also choose not buy if desired

[Knapik]

blueraider2 said:

in what way ?

hahah

[smathis]

curlig76 said:

Also in Tommy V's sense he is a very nice guy and was great with customer service. He also had nothing but great things to say about Tom Filsinger and his products.

Good point, Crippler, and one that I forgot to cover. WF's creator is an incredibly nice guy and cares about his game and the people playing it. The online community for WF is also extremely helpful and courteous.

And I didn't mean to knock his game. But I wanted to point out the reasons I didn't end up buying it.

One of the big positives of the game is its online fanbase, however. It was mostly them that swayed me to consider the purchase in the first place. A very good group of people.

[Mr. Jimmyface]

I have tried different board games, card games and computer games. I won't knock the. Some of them had their merits and were a lot of fun. Wrasslin' had a nice old school flavor, and the old Wrestlemania 2000 for N64 was a classic, especially once I learned how to use the costume and appearance codes to make The Rock look like Superman.

But ever since I started playing when I was 17 to now, Filsinger Games have always had a great product with lots of wrestlers to keep your fed hopping. Seven years ago, I finally met Tom Filsinger, and I am proud to call this man my friend today. Great game from a great guy, and in my mind, there is no competition.

[swarm]

Sounds like this guy's game sucks guys. wrestling isn't complicated not sure why this guys game is. Sounds pretty lame to me.

[Trent Lawless]

Personally, with having a life and all (some would say that's debatable, but kids be work, y'all), I love the fact that COTG is simple enough to do quickly yet open-ended enough to leave a lot of blanks for your own imagination to fill.

I mean, I like stats, but not that much. So I'm not even tempted. Haven't been tempted by another wrestling game since I first made the decision to go with COTG over Superstars back in '86.

But I'm glad this guy's nice, though.