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Post by gatekeeper on Aug 13, 2007 11:48:33 GMT -5
I'm not saying I want Angle to be crippled or anything, just maybe crack a rib, pull a hamstring.
Just enough to keep him off TV and Russo would have to figure out what to do with all the belts.
It would be hilarious.
And I don't just blindly hate TNA. I watch it almost every week hoping to be surprised by them doing something good and that makes sense, but they don't.
HW61 knows what I mean. He also said that all they do is push the WWE castaways over their own guys.
It's not hard to figure out why they suck.
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 13, 2007 11:59:46 GMT -5
Totally agree with both Payback and H61... the booking is terrible!
At this point, Joe needs to leave TNA.. he's at best JTTS there now (like Rhyno). He needs to either try to go to WWE (which I can't see happening, they'd likely just feed him to Umaga, then have him fade into obsurity) or return to RoH and try to re-build his 'indy cred'.
If TNA wants to stick around, they need to re-build the X division and the Tag Division.. being WWE-lite isn't gonna cut it.. they need to be DIFFERENT.
The only way Sting-Angle makes sense is to use it to sell a PPV or two while they re-invent themselves.
I also completely don't understand the think with Wojcik.. the guy is so clearly biased FOR TNA It makes me question his impartiality, and they kick him out?
The Observer is one of their biggest supporters in the IWC, if not the biggest.. to ruin that is really folly.
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Post by PureHatred on Aug 13, 2007 13:37:55 GMT -5
TNA's boking is, wasm, and always will be terrible.
They took the two biggest draws in the company, the tow men who hold all their titles, the two most obvious bad-asses arguably in North America and this is the way the feud was booked in the weeks leading up to the PPV:
1) Kurt is angry. his clothes were stolen. He runs around backstage in his underwear. Turns out, Joe stole his clothes. Grrr.
2)Next week, Kurt Angle cuts promos while sitting in a tanning booth. He never actually mentions Samoa Joe or their match
3)The week after that, Angle fight with his wife. Wife fight back. Kurt cries. Joes take shis clothes. Again.
4)The Impact before the PPV: Joe interviews Kurt's wife. She yells at Kurt. Kurt cries. Again. Kurt beats up Joe.
That's it. That's the feud.
Victory Road was an unmitigated disaster. Something around 15 K buys. The first Joe/Angle match was TNA's most successful PPV ever; around 60 K buys.
If the buys on this thing is closer to 15 K than 60 K, TNA only has themselves to blame.
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Post by Knapik on Aug 13, 2007 13:41:30 GMT -5
Wow, seeing that all together, PH, makes me even more sad.
I think Joe loves the money, but he can't be happy with the wrestling. Joe could be the man to beat Morishima, c'mon buddy!
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 13, 2007 13:43:13 GMT -5
Damn, PH, it sounds even more horrible listed like that..
no wonder wrestling has a bad rap.
Edit: Knapik beat me to it! Ah well, I agree!
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Post by JED-SE on Aug 13, 2007 14:23:39 GMT -5
While I don't completely agree with PH, there is some truth to his post. While Angle was funny in someways, there could have been about 1,000,001 better ways to set this match up. Having Angle's wife involved, and Angle running around in his underwear are just flat out lame. It has Russo written all over it.
I think there were some good setups on this card, but good set-ups don't make good PPV's. They make them okay at best. Unfortunately, TNA's booking past has had decent set-ups, and lousy finishes, which is what Russo was notorious for in WCW (well, more so the lousy finishes).
As I mentioned before...we'll just have to see what happens...
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Post by PureHatred on Aug 13, 2007 14:41:06 GMT -5
Good set ups don't make good PPVs. But they are what drives buy rates. And since almost all of TNA's revenue comes from PPV...well, there's a reason why they struggle to succeed, despite the fact that their actual matches are usually pretty good.
TNA has some very talented in-ring workers. But it really doesn't matter if you never give a people a good reason to buy a PPV and actually see them work.
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Post by JED-SE on Aug 13, 2007 15:08:49 GMT -5
Good set ups don't make good PPVs. But they are what drives buy rates. And since almost all of TNA's revenue comes from PPV...well, there's a reason why they struggle to succeed, despite the fact that their actual matches are usually pretty good. TNA has some very talented in-ring workers. But it really doesn't matter if you never give a people a good reason to buy a PPV and actually see them work. Can't argue with that
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Post by Hegemony on Aug 13, 2007 15:34:53 GMT -5
I typed up a VERY long-winded response to this thread, pointing out what I think are the flaws with TNA at the moment and evidenced by this PPV. While typing I got angrier and angrier, and finally I just deleted the whole thing. This show was so bad I couldn't find the words to comment on it.
It is mind-boggling how a fed with this much talent can produce such a poor show. We are beyond WrestleCrap and moving into WCW in 2000 levels, and to think that in terms of "in-ring", this roster can hang with anybody.
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Post by BDS on Aug 13, 2007 16:02:27 GMT -5
Don't worry, Hedge, I've got no such compunctions ... now onto my detailed insider information as to exactly how this monumental title match got booked.
Lets take two of the best in-ring workers in the world today, Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle, and book them in a match for every single belt in the company. So far, so good.
Lets then take those two guys and book them to steal each other's clothes and fight over Kurt's wife or whatever it was that was going on in the four weeks of buildup for this match. Ummmm ... okay, I suppose a little humor in building up a killer match can't hurt too much, I guess.
Then, lets take those belts and put them on Kurt Angle, a guy that was, for all intents and purposes, fired by the E. Lets show all of the rest of the wrestling universe that the very best of our homegrown talents, Samoa Joe, got beat by a WWE castoff. As a matter of fact, lets show everyone that the WWE cast off in question is better than every single person on our roster, because he now has all of the belts. Lets show that our roster, that could crush WWE in terms of putting on quality matches and has enough star power and promo guys sprinkled in to pull off the whole "Sports Entertainment" thing, basically just exists as filler for the crap we're able to scrape off of the soles of the E's shoes to come in and destroy. You know, because we have absolutely no friggin clue how to build a star of our own, so we've got to rely on pushing people who someone else was able to make a star before casting them aside.
Hey, and what if we the catalyst for the finish of this match between our two biggest and baddest wrestlers be a woman taking a chair away from nearly 300 pounds of Samoa Joe! That'd be great! Nobody wants to see an actual wrestling match that's essentially deciding the fate of four titles of various levels of authenticity be decided cleanly in the middle of the friggin' ring! That wouldn't go over with anyone!
TNA, you lose at wrestling.
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Post by Pete on Aug 13, 2007 16:13:28 GMT -5
Everyone here is of course well aware that the Internet is constantly overrun by "smart marks" in all disciplines: people who are COMPLETELY sure that they could do a better job of booking the WWE than the current creative staff, do a better job of running the local ballclub than the current GM, do a better job of running the country than any sitting or past President, do a better job of marketing/designing the Zune or Microsoft Surface than anyone in charge, etc. etc. etc. I've felt that way myself, as most of you have probably figured out. But deep down, they should all be aware that there's a lot more to running a company than being able to figure out Alex Rodriguez's VORP or knowing that the whole "invade Iraq" thing had some problems. Your average message board/blog-writer would be in way over his head.
Well, with TNA, that's not remotely the case. Without the slightest hint of exaggeration, anyone--ANYONE--on this board, from myself to H61 to Travis to Joe to LWPD to Swarm to (especially) Tom to steviedreamer to the Wrestling Wars guys, could do a better job of booking TNA than Vince Russo and his Band of Merry Idiots. Easily. Both from a match-quality standpoint and a "getting people to watch the damn product" standpoint. Again, this is not hyperbolic or ironic in any sense whatsoever--a committee of us, given sufficient freedom from the front office and given someone to take care of finances, could outbook TNA.
Good booking isn't THAT complicated. Not nearly as complicated as TNA has made it out to be with its ridiculous gimmick matches and 47 run-ins for every main event.
(Two suggestions I'll make right off the bat:
1. Quit trying to overtake the WWE in one night--you'll only make things harder on yourself.
2. Eliminate screwjob finishes--entirely. Yes, that means going the UWF/UWFI/'90s All-Japan route: all clean finishes, all the time. That doesn't mean you have to go to "pure wrestling" or that you can't have "entertainment" or that it's going to be "boring" or that I'm an ROH fanboy who wants every company to be like ROH. But ref-bumps and turns and swerves and fake turns and run-ins have been so ridiculously prevalent in every stinking PPV that they've completely lost all meaning. The whole concept of ref-bumps and such is basically an anachronism anyway--quit trying to be like every other fed and try to do something *really* unique.
No, all-clean-finishes is not a cure-all, but going for cure-alls is what partially has gotten TNA in this mess to begin with. It's a starting block is all, but it could be an effective one if you do it right.)
God, I don't know what set me off, but I've just written more on TNA in the past 5 minutes than I have my whole life.
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Post by johnnyreb on Aug 13, 2007 16:17:29 GMT -5
i believe you 've said what everybody is thinking when they watch tna pete.
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Post by dukedave on Aug 13, 2007 16:25:34 GMT -5
Geez, How drunk was I when I watched the PPV?? I enjoyed most of it with the exceptions of the bar room brawl, Pac Man, and Joe's retarded dance entrance.
But then again I am also know as the most objective, tolerant, optimistic poster on the board. I'm always trying to look on the bright side of things.
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Post by Pete on Aug 13, 2007 16:27:58 GMT -5
While I didn't see the pay-per-view at all, and only ranted based on the results + TNA's past history.
Not that I needed to see the show to realize how freaking stupid it is to have Karen Angle in a "swerve" that Stevie Wonder would have seen coming.
Edit: I also apologize to anyone left out of the "could book TNA better than Russo" list, but my post was long enough as it was. Rest assured that if you a.) have the cranial capacity and opposable digits to operate a computer keyboard and b.) have the good taste to have purchased a Filsinger Games product at some point in the past 21 years, you too have the ability to book TNA semi-competently.
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Post by johnnyreb on Aug 13, 2007 16:37:54 GMT -5
thats ok i'm able to read between the lines(sometimes) so i'm not offended.
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Post by gatekeeper on Aug 13, 2007 16:38:14 GMT -5
As I mentioned before...we'll just have to see what happens... No you don't. I'll tell you what'll happen. TNA will continue to have sucky PPVs and weekly shows while pushing the WWE dinosaurs over their home-grown younger guys who could actually help make the company interesting to watch.
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Post by dukedave on Aug 13, 2007 16:39:34 GMT -5
While I didn't see the pay-per-view at all, and only ranted based on the results + TNA's past history. Not that I needed to see the show to realize how freaking stupid it is to have Karen Angle in a "swerve" that Stevie Wonder would have seen coming. Neily smells funny.Edit: I also apologize to anyone left out of the "could book TNA better than Russo" list, but my post was long enough as it was. Rest assured that if you a.) have the cranial capacity and opposable digits to operate a computer keyboard and b.) have the good taste to have purchased a Filsinger Games product at some point in the past 21 years, you too have the ability to book TNA semi-competently. Hey Neily, you should read between the lines more carefully next time.
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Post by gatekeeper on Aug 13, 2007 16:40:37 GMT -5
Also, BDS, I don't think booking 2 guys for all your titles in any company would be a good idea.
Pete, you have some great points but the all-clean finishes I don't think would work.
It's not the finishes so much, it's the burying of young talent.
But I agree with you in that they are trying to overtake WWE all at once, which makes no sense since they will NEVER take over WWE anyway, so they should find their niche of fans and push theyoung guys.
Kind of like what Paul Heyman did.
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Post by johnnyreb on Aug 13, 2007 16:44:08 GMT -5
havoc quit kidnapping this thread.its a tna fed not a cheap shot thread.
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Post by Wildfire on Aug 13, 2007 16:44:26 GMT -5
I was just checking the feedback on the Observer.. NO thumbs up.. mostly 'in the middle' with bad comments... and, most telling, only like 6 or 7 feedback items...
Edit: I just looked back again, and there's more than I thought... there is ONE guy who said Thumbs up... of course, said guy stated he'd never heard of Pacman Jones, so I'm not sure he's ever left his house.
Then there was this guy some of y'all know ... I don't agree with him too often, but he's right on here:
Thumbs Down
Best match: The main event I guess even though a ham sandwich could book a better ending.
Worst match: Most of the rest. I’ll go with the Dustin Rhodes match.
So…I’m pretty much convinced at this point that the fans that prop TNA will always prop TNA no matter how absurd this crap gets. What’s the best way to build your promotion? If you said “job your best guy out to a washed up ex WWE star over and over and over…” then Vince Russo says you are correct sir.
Oh yeah, and give your tag titles to one guy…again.
At least they brought in Pac Man Jones to do nothing and build toward nothing.
God I can’t wait until Summer Slam.
Have a good one Dave!
Rob Beaubien
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