I have new respect for JJ

[swarm]

Anyone else think he's purposely sitting on the side-line watching TNA crap the bed under Russo, knowing full well that sooner than later, he can reposition himself as the top dog in the company by saying "see, it wasn't me..."? I do.

Who could have ever believed that with Jarrett off TV, TNA would be worse, and not better?

incredible.

[gatekeeper]

I never thought Jarrett was that bad.

The fans in the iMPACT! zone are so ridiculous that they change their mind of who they're cheering for every 5 minutes. The fans are too worried about chanting stuff than anything else.

That's a big reason of why TNA is as bad as it is.

Jarrett is everything you want your heel champ to be. They let him hang on to the belt a little too long though. He should've traded Sting back and forth a couple of times.

[JED-SE]

gatekeeper said:

I never thought Jarrett was that bad.

The fans in the iMPACT! zone are so ridiculous that they change their mind of who they're cheering for every 5 minutes. The fans are too worried about chanting stuff than anything else.

That's a big reason of why TNA is as bad as it is.

Jarrett is everything you want your heel champ to be. They let him hang on to the belt a little too long though. He should've traded Sting back and forth a couple of times.

That's pretty much how I've felt about JJ. I know lots of people don't like Jarrett and that's okay. While he's not nearly as good as Triple H, he had similar heel heat to him, in which people just want to see him lose the belt.

[Highway61Revisited]

jdiamond said:

gatekeeper said:

I never thought Jarrett was that bad.

The fans in the iMPACT! zone are so ridiculous that they change their mind of who they're cheering for every 5 minutes. The fans are too worried about chanting stuff than anything else.

That's a big reason of why TNA is as bad as it is.

Jarrett is everything you want your heel champ to be. They let him hang on to the belt a little too long though. He should've traded Sting back and forth a couple of times.

That's pretty much how I've felt about JJ. I know lots of people don't like Jarrett and that's okay. While he's not nearly as good as Triple H, he had similar heel heat to him, in which people just want to see him lose the belt.

That's not the "good" kind of heat. That's the "Oh my god, is this guy ever going to go away?" heat. It turns viewers off and thus loses them. I'm certainly not sticking up for TNA because last night pissed off someone who has been a viewer since week 1. But to say that JJ is really going to help in anyway is absurd.

It's not even like Hogan claiming the WCW product was failing when he was gone. At least then the rating would have a small pop for his first night back.

And when it comes to in-ring work, Jarrett and Triple H have very similar bodies of work. So saying he's "not nearly as good" is completely flawed. He's just as good and has a similar effect to the product overall: he causes viewers to watch something else.

[swarm]

That is INSANE. To say JJ is "just as good" as HHH is insane...

How many Wrestlemania's had JJ help sell out? How many millions of DX shirts has JJ help sell? How many guys has JJ helped put over who then sky-rocketed to the top of the business?

You are an amazing poster, you have a mind-blowing amount of knowledge about a lot of things, I'm just not sure wrestling is one of them.

I don't think anyone in this galaxy would ever say JJ is "just as good" as HHH.

Really? C'mon...

[Highway61Revisited]

swarm said:

That is INSANE. To say JJ is "just as good" as HHH is insane...

How many Wrestlemania's had JJ help sell out? How many millions of DX shirts has JJ help sell? How many guys has JJ helped put over who then sky-rocketed to the top of the business?

You are an amazing poster, you have a mind-blowing amount of knowledge about a lot of things, I'm just not sure wrestling is one of them.

I don't think anyone in this galaxy would ever say JJ is "just as good" as HHH.

Really? C'mon...

How exactly is it insane? Both are in their positions due to nepotism, neither have a clean record in putting new talent over, both cause viewers to see if there's anything else on television, and to a lesser extent, both have relatively the SAME body of work. Jarrett may have been a stronger worker in his prime actually.

Again, I never said ANYTHING about making money. Give me the heel HHH of 2000 over anything Jarret's ever done if I'm trying to run a wrestling promotion. But the similarities are obviously there and it's kind of hard to deny them.

[swarm]

well, let's see...HHH helped catapult the two biggest faces in wrestling today, Batista and Cena, to the top of the industry...

Who did JJ help do that with?

Look, if you can't understand wrestling, above all else, is a business, then you will never understand the ins and outs, facts, and figures about what separates the actual performers from one another...

saying JJ is "just as good" as HHH is about the most inaccurate thing I have ever read on this board, and that is saying a lot...

While I can't stand DX, I'm not dumb enough to not know they are selling out arenas across the nation, selling boat-loads of merchandise, and making the company they work for money, while JJ is doing none of that.

I don't know how else to help you better understand the concept behind pro wres.

[swarm]

This is not directed at H61R, but in general...

The wrestling industry is not geared toward the loser kid living in his parents basement collecting star wars dolls and ROH tapes...

you have no money...no one cares about you. Pro wres is geared toward the guy with money, who will spend it on PPV's, DVD's, tickets, T-Shirts, etc...

and those types of people are usually the kind of people who have really busy lives, and enjoy wrestling for the 2 or 3 hour "escape from reality" that it is...

so you can complain about what makes a wrestler a great wrestler until you're blue in the face, but it's not what makes money in this business, and no amount of complaining about it will change the face of the Industry...

if it was, ROH would be selling out Ford Field next year and not WWE.

Those are the facts.

[gatekeeper]

swarm said:

This is not directed at H61R, but in general...

The wrestling industry is not geared toward the loser kid living in his parents basement collecting star wars dolls and ROH tapes...

you have no money...no one cares about you. Pro wres is geared toward the guy with money, who will spend it on PPV's, DVD's, tickets, T-Shirts, etc...

so you can complain about what makes a wrestler a great wrestler until you're blue in the face, but it's not what makes money in this business, and no amount of complaining about it will change the face of the Industry...

if it was, ROH would be selling out Ford Field next year and not WWE.

Very true. Well said.

[gatekeeper]

swarm said:

well, let's see...HHH helped catapult the two biggest faces in wrestling today, Batista and Cena, to the top of the industry...

Who did JJ help do that with?

Look, if you can't understand wrestling, above all else, is a business, then you will never understand the ins and outs, facts, and figures about what separates the actual performers from one another...

saying JJ is "just as good" as HHH is about the most inaccurate thing I have ever read on this board, and that is saying a lot...

While I can't stand DX, I'm not dumb enough to not know they are selling out arenas across the nation, selling boat-loads of merchandise, and making the company they work for money, while JJ is doing none of that.

I don't know how else to help you better understand the concept behind pro wres.

Not to mention he helped propel Randy Orton into a main eventer, helped Edge by putting him over a few times.

Plus, last time I checked HHH is a former European Champ, I-C Champ, Tag Champ and 10 time Heavyweight Champion.

I don't see anything on JJ's resume that even comes close to being on par with that. Although he was WWE I-C Champ, Tag champs with Owen, and WCW U.S. Champ, he wasn't going against guys like Austin, and The Rock, Bret, and HBK. Being TNA champ for 6 months doesn't put him on par with HHH.

So saying he and HHH have relatively the "same body of work" is not exactly true.

[GOODZILLA]

gatekeeper said:

So saying he and HHH have relatively the "same body of work" is not exactly true.

to be more precise, it is 100% false.

It would be like me claiming that Andre Ware (Heisman trophy winner, player of the game for the Detroit Lions one time in the 1992 season) has the same "body of work" as Brett Favre (3 time NFL MVP, Super Bowl Champion).

Just because they are both quarterbacks doesn't mean they are comparable.

[Highway61Revisited]

Wow. I don't even know where to start.

First off, the rationalization that HHH "helped" Cena is nuts. After all the work that Angle and Jericho had done to protect his weaknesses, Trips goes out and kills it by openly TALKING about them in front of an auidence. That helps NO ONE.

When I said JJ is a better worker than HHH, or in his prime, I'm talking specifically about talent. If you read my posts, which I'm actually starting to wonder, you would realize that I don't say "workrate" sells. I give two different opinions as I did in the post above: 1) the talent of the two workers and then 2) the business side of it all. Saying that I know nothing about professional wrestling is a big question mark on your end because your posts a lot of the time seem to be WWEApologist propaganda.

The comparison between two QBs was probably the worst analogy I've ever heard. That's saying a lot. I'm art school student. These pretentious nitwits like to make analogies quite often.

JJ and HHH have several similarities, I'm sorry you can't see that. I never once said that JJ was a bigger draw, that's putting words in my mouth.

Here let me explain some terms for you so that you can better understand my posts instead of getting in a tizzy everytime I say something that blows your mind:

"Worker" - It means the body of ring work. The action which goes on during a wrestling match. EX: Samoa Joe is a very good worker.

"Draw" - Someone's ability to bring in money. EX: Hulk Hogan is the quntiessential box office draw for professional wrestling.

When I was ModernTimes I made a post that said I realize how disconnected my taste for ring-work is from the mainstream and I toss that aside.

But the idea that you have of Triple H being some company guy who doesn't mind doing jobs and putting people over is asinine. How many careers has he buried post-quad? THAT is comparable to Jarrett. It's comparable to Jarrett because when DX comes on people CHANGE THE CHANNEL. It's comparable because every great empire collapses from within and Trips is doing JUST THAT to the company.

People want to see Cena and the WWE should give them that.

I'm really, really glad you enjoy the WWE. But rose-colored glasses and Kool-AId drinking have never helped anyone. And tearing apart my posts when you clearly aren't understanding what I'm saying is really frustrating. I've never said Jarrett makes more money than Trips. Ever. So take a moment. Read my posts and then come to a coherent understanding of what exactly it is that I'm saying. That's all I ask.

[gatekeeper]

highway61revisited said:

when DX comes on people CHANGE THE CHANNEL. It's comparable because every great empire collapses from within and Trips is doing JUST THAT to the company.

People want to see Cena and the WWE should give them that.

No malicious intent on my part of my response to your statements, but DX gets one of the biggest crowd pops each and every night.

I can't stand this incarnation of DX but to say people change the channel when DX comes out is false, I think.

HHH is not making the WWE collapse. The WWE has no chance of collapsing as long as Vince is alive. Even after he's gone, it would take a long time for the WWE empire to fall.

Just because HHH married into the empire's family, doesn't take away from what he's done.

He puts guys over all the time. I think he's lost more times at WrestleMania than he's won, and if memory serves he's 0-3 in his last 3 times at the "big dance."

When it's all said and done, not many will even remember JJ but almost everyone will remember HHH.

[GOODZILLA]

highway61revisited said:

The comparison between two QBs was probably the worst analogy I've ever heard. That's saying a lot. I'm art school student. These pretentious nitwits like to make analogies quite often.

Not really. I was just comparing 2 guys who should never be compared. Exactly like you did.

[GOODZILLA]

gatekeeper said:

When it's all said and done, not many will even remember JJ but almost everyone will remember HHH.

JJ's biggest claims to fame in the WWE consisted of wearing sunglasses that could light up ... and losing a spatula match to Chyna.

[Highway61Revisited]

gatekeeper said:

highway61revisited said:

when DX comes on people CHANGE THE CHANNEL. It's comparable because every great empire collapses from within and Trips is doing JUST THAT to the company.

People want to see Cena and the WWE should give them that.

No malicious intent on my part of my response to your statements, but DX gets one of the biggest crowd pops each and every night.

I can't stand this incarnation of DX but to say people change the channel when DX comes out is false, I think.

HHH is not making the WWE collapse. The WWE has no chance of collapsing as long as Vince is alive. Even after he's gone, it would take a long time for the WWE empire to fall.

Just because HHH married into the empire's family, doesn't take away from what he's done.

He puts guys over all the time. I think he's lost more times at WrestleMania than he's won, and if memory serves he's 0-3 in his last 3 times at the "big dance."

When it's all said and done, not many will even remember JJ but almost everyone will remember HHH.

And I totally agree with that. 100%. My one side note was that JJ was a slightly better "worker" than HHH in their respective. Never said anything about who will be remembered.

However according to the WO, many WWE stars are looking at TNA as a viable option. You get more time off, Vince is so temperamental these days, etc. There are problems with the product and while they are pulling a huge profit, you have to wonder for how much longer? Their new stars aren't getting over at the rate they would like, they are relying way too much on nostalgia booking, there's nothing that's pointing towards the future. The booking is so week-to-week it's sad.

There are hard quarter hour numbers that show that DX loses viewers. I wouldn't just pull this out of my ass.

Trips' jobs at WM are what makes him look like a company man. Look at EVERYTHING else. Trips is a politicking piece of crap. JUST like Jeff Jarrett. Trips' only claim to fame is he's working for the one that's bringing in the cash.

^ Oh. Look. They can be compared because they are in two very similar situations. Holding talent down, etc.

[PureHatred]

I honestly think Triple H is a bigger draw than Jeff Jarrett AND a much better worker. Especially pre-knee surgery.

The comparison of JJ to Trips is done to death. I think the major difference is that while both men have obviously used their backstage influence ot their benefit, Jaff Jarrett has never at any point been a draw while Trips was arguably the best all-around performer in the company for a long stretch before he became a McMahon.

Triple H vs The Rock, vs Austin, vs Foley...nothing in JJ's resume comes close to matching that stretch, ringwork, promos, nothing JJ has ever done comes close.

EDIT: to sum up, Trips was a main eventer before he became the favorite son, JJ was never a main eventer UNTIL he became the favorite son.

As to the topic: I think its entirely possible JJ stepped aside knowing Russo's ideas wouldn't work. Which is kind of pathetic considering he's one of Russo's best friends in the business and JJ really would be nothing w/o Russo having pushed him while working for WCW.

I think most people expected that TNA would get better w/o JJ around stifling the direction of the product. Not only is it worse, but its markedly worse.

Simply put, even if Jarrett isn't "the problem" he's also not the soluition. The problem is that the company is run by a bunch of half-retarded chimpanzees. And there may not actually be a solution.

[GOODZILLA]

highway61revisited said:

Their new stars aren't getting over at the rate they would like

For a lot of guys that is true, but I do have to argue that CM Punk seems pretty damn over right now. And you can sense them building up to huge things for him.

Also .... what the hell happened to Harry Smith?? Are they still planning on bringing him in?

[Joe]

For a stretch of about three-plus years prior to his injury, Triple H did not have a bad match. Period.

The Game had great matches with everyone he was in the ring with during the period of about late 1997 until 2001when he blew his quad, regardless of the opponent. Even after his return, it took putting H in the ring with a nearly-immobile Scott Steiner for him to have a bad match.

To say Jarrett is in the same arena as Triple H, in any capacity, is simply wrong.

[Highway61Revisited]

joe said:

For a stretch of about three-plus years prior to his injury, Triple H did not have a bad match. Period.

The Game had great matches with everyone he was in the ring with during the period of about late 1997 until 2001when he blew his quad, regardless of the opponent. Even after his return, it took putting H in the ring with a nearly-immobile Scott Steiner for him to have a bad match.

To say Jarrett is in the same arena as Triple H, in any capacity, is simply wrong.

Really? You mean the match vs. UT at KOTR '02 was good? The putrid selling in the SummerSlam '02 match was ok because it was Shawn and Trips, right? The match versus RVD will stand in time as one of the greats?

It took Scott Steiner?

Clearly you need to get in better contact with Jarrett's work. His stuff in Memphis is solid. Most of the first WWF run, solid. Most of his WCW work? Solid. A handful of second WCW run and TNA and he's got a body of work very comparable to Trips' magical run.

This idea that Trips was one of the best workers in the world prior to the injury is sickening. The dude has always been average and had PLENTY of bad matches. Hell from the time period you alloted from 97-mid 98 alone most of his stuff was average-decent. So your condescending tone really holds no merit of anything.

Trips did some decent work, yeah. But when pro wrestling historians look back at 97-01 will his stuff stick out? Most likely not. He is what he is and that's an average worker.