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Post by Jason Resu on Nov 17, 2005 8:00:22 GMT -5
This is the final word I'll say on this. I'm not sure if some people even saw Swarm's original post, because he edited it when me and one other individual called him on it. His original post said: "I watched TNA tonite cause I have the flu and my God, what a horrible wrestling product this is...I'm sorry...I'm convinced the people who like this garbage are WWE haters through and through, not real wrestling fans." Saying TNA is garbage is absolutely fine. But it's when you say that TNA fans aren't real wrestling fans (which he went back and edited out)... that's what you call trolling, because it is said for no reason other than to provoke fans of TNA. Provoking intelligent discussion... that's cool. Provoking a friendly debate... that's cool. Provoking people to anger by insulting them... that's trolling. Definition of insult: 1. [n] a deliberately offensive act or something producing the effect of an affront; "turning his back on me was a deliberate insult" 2. [n] a rude expression intended to offend or hurt; "when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse"; "they yelled insults at the visiting team" 3. [v] treat, mention, or speak to rudely; "He insulted her with his rude remarks" Harassing someone in PM's and saying I better "watch my step" if we're ever both at Galacticon... that's a juvenile threat. I don't care how many people come to his aid, the truth is in the text. Now this topic is dead to me. Au revoir topic. Well said. Swarm was engaging in trolling and is correctly labeled as a troll. The fact that there are regular posters who enjoy his trolling or some on here who are in ignorance/denial as to what trolling is doesn't change that fact. Don't waste your time Gordon as your logic will fall on deaf ears. I do however suggest forwarding those harassing e-mails to the mods. That's a clear violation of board policy, unless harassment itself is also board approved. Remember in the end this is a discussion board for a pro wres board game not nuclear science. The community standards at large reflect the audience. This thread shows it's limits in action. |
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Post by Joe on Nov 17, 2005 9:28:15 GMT -5
I am still trying to figure out how speculating about why someone likes a particular product is trolling.
A person could very easily draw the conclusion that a fan of TNA is a fan simply because that fan hates the WWE. TNA has inferior production, less charismatic performers and, for the most part, less-skilled wrestlers.
Most people who are turned off by the WWE's current product seem to be those who complain about WWE's "lack of wrestling" and yearn for the good ol' days of whatever era they view in that light. They are such staunch supporters of TNA because they see it as an alternative.
Here's where things get confusing to me, however. TNA uses a six-sided ring and features such stellar in-ring grapplers as Kip James, Kevin Nash and Monty Brown, as well as people who couldn't cut a good promo to save their lives (damn near everyone on the roster save for a few notable exceptions). Most of the matches are high-spot after high-spot and contain very little of the "wrestling" that made most TNA supporters (WWE bashers) fans in the first place.
I hope no one sees my post as trolling, but I think this is a good summarization of why someone could say people who sing the praises of TNA are doing it simply out of disdain for the WWE.
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Post by chrismystery on Nov 17, 2005 13:42:17 GMT -5
I think the wrestling that you think that we like, is a little off. To me wrestling is "wrestler A" versus "wrestler B"...who is better. That's it.
TNA is closer to my idea of wrestling, while McMahon's idea of Entertainment is Some Guy (who cheated on his wife to get back at the other guy's brother while trying to be a movie star in Japan) versus the Some Other Guy(who spent two years in prison while dating the owner's 2nd cousin who happens to be hispanic and rides to the ring on a lawnmower). That is not what I call wrestling.
Also, I don't like TNA because I am a WWE hater. I like TNA and coincidentally, I hate WWE . I also enjoy Football and The Simpsons while I hate baseball, the pope and cigarettes. None of them are related to each other.
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Post by floydthebarber on Nov 17, 2005 16:38:45 GMT -5
You could say that...but you probably wouldn't be right. I think there are some fans who are championing TNA simply because they dont like Vince or the WWE...but there are those like me who have been long time WWE fans who have been turned off the product over the course of the past 2-3 years, and arewilling to give alternatives a chance. Do I think TNA is better than WWE...no. But is TNA putting out an entertaining, interesting alternative to the WWE...yes. I am very interested to see where TNA goes and how it grows because its still in its infancy in many ways, just like I'm interested to see how Brock Lesnar and NJPW revive the Japanese Wrestling scene. Many people have given up on the WWE simply because they know who runs the show, how he runs it, and know that he isn't going to change his philosophy so long as he has a monopoly.
I haven't been blown away with the TNA product, and from what I've seen, its hit and miss...but there is the prospect of growth and some really interesting feuds that we would never see in the WWE. Plus, they hae a few wrestlers that I like. Am I saying Rhino v. Abyss is Main Event calibre compared to what the WWE puts out on RAW? Not really...but in the context of TNA, Rhino v. Abyss is a nice Main Event to have on an hour long wrestling program following a PPV. The NWA Tag Champs are in action as well, and Christian will get some TV time...so I'm interested. Period.
It is also my opinion that people who continue to put up a fight about WWE being so much better than TNA, and who continue to probe why people are willing to put up with the lower production value of TNA, and conclude that it is simply the spiteful reaction of a Vince hater need to get off their high horse and just respect the fact that people will like what they like. There have been tons of times where I've had a much better time in a dive bar listening to no-name punk bands for a $5 cover compared to the $40-50 arena shows with a big name rock band and 15,000 people. There is no question that the arena show has better production, sound, video etc...but there is just something about the raw, viceral, grungy atmosphere in a club that holds 200-300 people. I would never ask my friends who listen to 50 cent to come to a show with me and expect them to have a really good time (they might?)...just like they know that if they ask me to go to a 50 concert I'm going to look them in the eye and ask if they're on acid!
Joe...your a sharp guy, and your entitled to an answer to your query about TNA fans...but really, just let it go and enjoy your Monday and Friday nights and let others enjoy theirs!
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hawk
Prelim Bum
Posts: 12
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Post by hawk on Nov 17, 2005 17:21:03 GMT -5
How did I know my comments would create a firestorm? Oh yeah, I forgot, Kurt Angle.
Kurt Angle is a fantastic wrestler with some SERIOUS flaws. They are the exactly same things that will make Shawn Michaels never be acklowleged as a greatest of all time, because he does atleast one of them in every single match. Here are his flaws:
#1: Angle does not sell long term body damage. Angle wil have a body part worked over, only for him to spring up and hit a top rope Angle Slam, or something silly like that. He does not sell anything long term. I've never seen him sell arm work, or leg work, longer then maybe a shake here or there. If Angle sells anything the entire match...it's because he's actually hurt.
#2: Angle does NOT build to the Angle Lock. He does not do any ankle work. Nor any leg work. He uses the hold as a one hit killer. Thats fine for the leg-vine variation, but it's not for the regular, since everyone and their mothers have escaped from it. Angle uses general wear down holds, but none of them affect the leg, at all. Bret Hart would work the back and legs the entire match. Benoit works the upperbody the entire match. Flair works the legs. Angle does NOTHING to set up the hold. For the most part, this is less bad then #1, because he's gotten the Leg-Vine verison over so much...but it's still a flaw.
#3: Angle has devalued the Angle Slam to nothing more then a setup move. Hell, he can't even win matches with a TOP ROPE VERISON OF IT. It's just another move now.
I like Kurt Angle, and I respect him for continuing to wrestle far beyond it being intelligent to do so...but he's not an elite wrestler. He's not Chris Benoit, or Bret Hart. He's GOOD, but not the awe inspiring jesus-like figure people build him up to be.
...Once again, before anyone tears me apart, I like Kurt Angle. He just has no grasp of psychology. He can work a MATCH, but he can't tell a story beyond big spots and moves.
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Post by floydthebarber on Nov 17, 2005 17:39:03 GMT -5
Hawk...you make some good points. I think Angle does get away with certain things (no sell) because of who he is, and his status. I don't put him in the same class as Benoit either...but honestly, is there anyone in Benoit's class in terms of actual in ring wrestling? Kurt is good...sometimes very good...but can't be considered an all time great like HBK, Flair, Austin, The Rock or Hart can. I'd even argue that HHH still has some work to do to be considered in that group.
I still think that saying he has no in ring psychology is incorrect...by working a match well (which you say he can do) he is at least working within the confines of what a wrestling match is...and that in iteself tells a story. You made some good points, I just think your painting with very broad strokes...but you did back up your stance, so I give you credit.
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Post by Joe on Nov 17, 2005 18:11:54 GMT -5
One of the knocks Hawk put on Angle is one that I put on damn near everybody currently in the business. No one, it seems, sells bodily damage for more than about a minute. A guy can take a nut shot and bounce right back up in today's wrestling world.
While I am posting, I am going to clear up one misconception that may have been drawn from my previous post about TNA.
I watch Impact, and I have watched TNA pretty regularly since its inception in the summer of 2002, so I am familiar with the product. The comments I made about fans of TNA are to applied to certain fans. The guy who grades every broadcast of the program as an "A" or "A+," but blasts everything WWE does is who my opinion was referring to. The handful of posters I read on Wrestlecrap who claim it as the greatest innovation since the wheel, all the while claiming there is not a single redeeming quality on RAW or Smackdown are the ones that I am talking about.
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Post by floydthebarber on Nov 17, 2005 19:05:01 GMT -5
True. I've been pretty impressed with Chris Masters simply because, as a young guy, he does sell and is pretty good at keeping it up through a match. Probably because he relies on his opponnent to do the same thing to sell The Masterlock...but its nice to see. Jeff Hardy is another guy who is very good at selling an entire match (but usually its because he really is hurt...but he knows how to do it) HBK is at the other end of the spectrum...you could get him in the corner, drive a mack truck into him, beat him with a bat for 5 minutes, and he'd still grab you, spin you around, and start beating on you as if you just attacked him with a feather.  OK...a bit much, but you know what I'm talking about. As for your TNA coments, I do agree that people who give the show an A+ or think its the best thing they have EVER seen are clearly a little too 'excited' to be taken seriously. But it does at least show they've (TNA) got some blindly loyal fans...the same type of fan WWE counts on to keep RAW in the high 3's in the ratings (I'm looking in a certain flying, stinging insects direction as I say this...) I respect your opinion Joe, as you have said before that you have watched TNA since its early days...I just think someone giving TNA a blind A+++ speaks for itself. But this is a discussion board... |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Nov 17, 2005 19:39:22 GMT -5
Actually, and I'm not a big Benoit booster, he sells better than anyone, probably...so there's at least one guy who can sell long-term (See Benoit from the two months around WM, where he looked like he was about to die from "injuries").
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Post by swarm on Nov 17, 2005 21:28:28 GMT -5
When did I post this thread? 5 days ago?
hey, love me or hate me, ya gotta admit, I can draw a crowd...
as for the "guest" here, thanks man. It's the ULTIMATE compliment that I have fired you up so much that you would try to slam me in disguise, no doubt afraid of something...awesome stuff.
I may not think much at all of Tafkaga and his "bitter ex-girlfriend like" attempts at rallying the troops against me, but at least he isn't hiding in the corner with his pretty pink pacifier in fear of me knowing who he is.
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Post by gatekeeper on Nov 21, 2005 7:48:53 GMT -5
Can everyone STOP worrying about whether someone is a "troll." Jeez.
Are we all back in 3rd grade???
So someone has an opinion that is contrary to yours...SO WHAT? Then point out why you think your opinion is valid and try to point out where you think the other person is wrong. That's what debating is.
If I hear the word troll one more time on this board, I may vomit all over my computer.
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Post by canadianpittbull on Nov 21, 2005 9:36:32 GMT -5
TROLL! ;D I hope your vomit is nice and thick!  |
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Post by gatekeeper on Nov 21, 2005 11:57:20 GMT -5
It was. And actually I had spaghetti for lunch and some of the noodles came out whole!  |
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Post by canadianpittbull on Nov 21, 2005 17:49:22 GMT -5
Hehe!! Hopefully they didn't come out your nose whole. ;D
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Post by gatekeeper on Nov 22, 2005 8:32:12 GMT -5
Hehe!! Hopefully they didn't come out your nose whole. ;D Gross! When I was in elementary school that happened to the kid I was sitting next to. It was so disgusting!! |
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Post by chrismystery on Nov 22, 2005 9:22:22 GMT -5
You guys might want to watch out before the evil Toll hunter comes in and cleans house.
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Post by Tournament Master on Nov 22, 2005 10:42:07 GMT -5
Wow, how did I miss this thread. So much hosility brought about by the Icon that is Swarm. I love it! Hey opinions are like @$$holes...everyone has one and they all stink. So live with it Swarm-haters.
I have to say the thing that disturbs me the most in this thread is Tommy clamining that Smackdown rules wrestling. Of course this could be sarcasm and I could be completely missing the point.
To me Raw is the only must watch program. TNA has the best wrestling of any program (because the guys their only need to wrestle once every 2 weeks), but their storylines suck and always just have pointless brawls (as Mr. Swarm pointed out). Still I would rather watch TNA than Smackdown, which just has abysmal writing, so much so that I can't stand watching the program, even if I don't know the results. (my wife feels the exact same way). Its not even the Smackdown guys, as I enjoy them when they are incorparted into Raw.
Anyways, sorry to get off topic. In the end I think TNA serves a vital role in wrestling, much like ECW did in the 90's, an alternative to mainstream wrestling for hardcore fans. Do I like it as much, no. But do others, sure. Are they in the same league as the WWE, of course not, but they don't need to be to serve their purpose. Do they need to get the belt off of Jarrett? Heck yeah, but not yet, they still need some time to build up the contenders in front of the national audience.
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Post by swarm on Nov 22, 2005 11:45:48 GMT -5
It was. And actually I had spaghetti for lunch and some of the noodles came out whole! hey gatekeeper, remember the time I was drunk and was making out with that Veronica girl and I puked up some spagetti O's in her mouth... and what did she say? "oh! spagetti O's!" true story. ...she really liked me... |
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Post by chrismystery on Nov 22, 2005 12:14:39 GMT -5
It was. And actually I had spaghetti for lunch and some of the noodles came out whole! hey gatekeeper, remember the time I was drunk and was making out with that Veronica girl and I puked up some spagetti O's in her mouth... and what did she say? "oh! spagetti O's!" true story. ...she really liked me... In the words of GAMTIME247 - "This thread should just be gone cause that is just a 100 percent trolling. It serves no point in other than to make fun of something and contributes nothing to the board. ...Very 5yr oldish. " Now everyone sit back and watch... |
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Nov 22, 2005 12:30:13 GMT -5
I have to say the thing that disturbs me the most in this thread is Tommy clamining that Smackdown rules wrestling. Of course this could be sarcasm and I could be completely missing the point. It disturbs me more that I am apparently the only one that thinks so. Smackdown has "juniors" and Raw has McMahons...neither are entertaining, but the juniors take up about five minutes, not 35 minutes. Smackdown's GM is at least portrayed consistently. Not heel-tweener-heel-tweener-faceforfiveminutes-tweener-heel. Melina and Trish rule equally, so I'll call them dead even on divas. The Batista-Guerrero storyline was playing out incredibly well,and actually making me like Eddie again. Cena-Angle, on the other hand, has just felt long and boring. Kennedy. Tazz is the best color man in wrestling...I daresay the best commentator on the WWE roster. MNM are awesome, complete with the "Best Intro in the Business" and single handedly blow away Raw's tag division. I base my findings off of how much I fast forward through a show, and - the Eddie tributes notwithstanding - I tend to have to give myself a bunch of lead time on Raw to get past the crap. TNA, well, not so much...but I do tend to get distracted easily. That said, last night the only thing I skipped outside of commercials was part of Flair-Murdoch...I was hardpressed to find a less compelling match available on the Raw roster. Now, I'm not going to sit here and bash you or anyone else for finding more enjoyment out of McMahon jackhammering JR's @$$...more power to ya...but don't go knocking on my Smackdown preference...=P |
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OK...a bit much, but you know what I'm talking about.
