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Post by tafkaga on Nov 13, 2005 15:06:13 GMT -5
Eddie Guerrero's passing is sad, and I'm truly sorry that it happened... but it has no bearing on what we're talking about here. And if you think that this is a TNA vs. WWE fight... I don't think you've been reading the posts very carefully. I love hearing people's opinions on TNA whether they're for or against... what I don't like is reading comments that are made in an insulting manners toward anyone who is a fan of the product.
Swarm I'm not trying to rally anyone against you... I don't have hold any ill will toward you, I just wish you didn't act like such a prick. I really don't care that you don't like TNA. Doesn't matter one bit to me...it's just the way you are insulting about it. It would be one thing to say "I don't like TNA because of such and such, and I think the product would be better if they did such and such". You've showed in the past that you're capable of this type of intelligent analysis. But then the next thing you do is say something stupid like (paraphrased) "TNA is garbage, anyone who likes it must only like it because they hate WWE, and they're not true wrestling fans". Then you say that you didn't intend to be insulting?
I welcome your opinions, Swarm. Friendly debates are A-OK with me. You hating TNA is A-OK with me. But don't express them in an insulting manner unless you like little discussions like what we're having now...because I'm not afraid of big bad internet forum people.
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Post by swarm on Nov 13, 2005 15:26:24 GMT -5
I clearly changed my post because it came out wrong. My friends know me. Nuff said.
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Post by Joe on Nov 13, 2005 18:05:28 GMT -5
People can express their opinions any way they say fit. There are certainly opinions one could express that are offensive, and some might even offend me. The fact is, the opinions are allowed to be stated.
Now that I've said that, I don't see what Swarm said that was so insulting to the fans of TNA. For the most part, I agree with what he said. I am a fan of both AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. There are a few other people that have performed in TNA over the past 3 years I have liked, as well, but after watching last night's show (which isn't the first TNA broadcast I have watched, by the way), I am dumbfounded at how so many can relentlessly sing the praises of this company.
Before I get started about TNA, however, I would like to ask why someone is considered a troll because he posts unflattering comments in the section dedicated to what he is talking about. Swarm was talking about TNA, so why wouldn't he post his comments in the TNA section?
One poster on another topic gave last night's show an "A+." An "A+?" Are you serious? There were two matches that were close to decent (Samoa Joe vs. Austin Aries and Styles vs. Petey Williams), and even the Styles match was disappointing. For the most part, every match looked like the wrestlers were practicing for a major show. Even Joe vs. Aries, which was the best match on the program, looked very well rehearsed.
I was also amused by Tafkaga's praise of the addition of "Sports Entertainment" angles. Where was the entertainment part? Everyone I heard last talk last night was horrible on the mic. Even Raven, who at one time was one of the best stick men in wrestling, seemed to bored and going through the motions. Hell, even Shane Douglas sucked as an interviewer.
I believe Swarm is right in his assessment of most TNA fans. It seems that they put their rose-colored glasses on when watching "Impact," and throw shit at the TV screen when it is time to watch WWE programming.
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Nov 13, 2005 19:06:21 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't understand why everyone talks up Raw AND TNA so much when Smackdown CLEARLY rules them both...=P WWE even desperately tried to save Taboo Tuesday by pulling their two most over wrestlers (Batista and Matt Hardy) onto the show!
Spin doctoring is fun.
This whole "such and such isn't a TRUE wrestling fan" is getting as tired as the "Since when is soandso a legend!?!?!" that keeps popping up on the Legends forum.
Me, I only watch all three major shows because I get enjoyment out of all three major shows. If you are getting nothing from them, then for the love of God find something else to watch.
Now Bill Watts' Mid-South/UWF...THAT was how you pack an hour.
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Post by swarm on Nov 13, 2005 19:24:04 GMT -5
Easier said than done Tommy. I didn't watch TNA because I thought it sucked. I watched because I like wrestling and was hoping to be entertained.
I'm sure some people do the same with RAW.
While I will definitly be watching, and taping SD this week, I just can't get into a taped wrestling program. It just doesn't have that exciting "feel" to it like RAW does.
I hate when they add fake "pops" "cheers" and "boo's" into the feed...that's probably my major complaint.
There are a lot of wrestlers I really like on SD...probably more than I like on RAW...I just wish it were live.
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hawk
Prelim Bum
Posts: 12
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Post by hawk on Nov 13, 2005 19:51:22 GMT -5
Explain to me WHERE WWE has any psychology Swarm, because I'd love to hear it. I watch both federations, and neither are exactly use it very well.
I mean, lets take WWE's main eventers for example...John Cena? Doesn't even have any real setup moves, nor does he move towards his finisher. Kurt Angle? The worst match builder in probably both federation's main events. Angle NEVER has and never will use any ounce of Psychology in his matches. He does not build to a single move, and often just throws out moves for the sake of throwing them out.
So really, next time you make claims like that, please keep in mind that, that aspect of wrestling is dying. WWE, the fed you love, is just as bad as TNA.
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Post by swarm on Nov 13, 2005 21:04:19 GMT -5
Hawk, I don't think you could be more wrong with you're comments about Kurt Angle...
but just so *no one* thinks I'm *trolling* you for disagreeing, here is a pm from a friend who I asked to read your post...name withheld...
_________________________________________
I don't think I have a knowledgable enough opinion to make a judgement about his in ring psychology, but from my point of view, the fact that he is a ruthless, former amateur wrestler IS his persona/psychology and is how he tells a story in his matches.
He uses wrestling moves to wear down his opponnent, all the while looking for a chance to lock on the angle lock or hit the Angle Slam.
Angle's put on enough great matches that he's got to know a thing or two about it. If you have a good/great match...then you had good psychology as far as I'm concerned. I suspect the guy who said that doesn't know what he's talking about.
I think people are just defensive because you do come across as dumping on TNA and those who watch it...so they just try and find fault with you and what you say.
You throw stones, they throw them back. I'm sure Angle may not be a master of in ring psychology like some, but if TNA were to get him, buddy would be salivating at the mouth, unable to sleep for days at the thought of Angle in TNA...so, whatever...
_________________________________________
I couldn't have said it better myself so I asked my friend that he allow me to post this.
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Post by ringsyde on Nov 13, 2005 21:52:44 GMT -5
Okay, I've ignored this thread for long enough. Time to make a few points.
Swarm, you have, at times, come across as looking down on TNA fans for liking the show. Specifically, you call the show a spotfest, the fans boring, the production values horrid, etc., and you talk down to those who defend the product. All this may be true, but there's a more sincere way to convey it.
I personally think that TNA is little more than an indy fed with a TV deal, but I think there are some great wrestlers (Monty Brown, A.J. Styles) and some good matches, and I think that there's enought there to ignore poor production values and a high spot versus psychology ratio - for now.
Hawk, I'm not sure what you've been watching, but Kurt Angle went from teasing / setting up the Angle Slam to threatening with the Ankle Lock to creating an eerie sense that he could take you out at any time with either move to entering the ring with such a repertoire and a great win/loss record that he IS the psychology now. Today's wrestling finishers don't lend themselves to the "set-up" very well, but there are several wrestlers who faithfully apply psychology during virtually every match. I can't and wont defend John Cena (primarily because I think he's the biggest joke since the Renegade), but I recall Triple H, Ric Flair, Hogan, Michaels, Batista, Carlito and Chris Masters all using some form of in-ring psychology within the last three months. Do they use it well? HELL NO!! That would require a re-dedication to WRESTLING and STORYTELLING. These, of course, are the silent partners to today's "sports entertainment". I haven't seen ring psychology applied with any cogency since the last time I watched NJPW.
I agree with Swarm about taped wrestling. I tape RAW every Monday (because I'm in class all night), and every Tuesday, I say "I;m not watching this s**t because it wont feel right."
Finally, I don't think my friend (I think I'm safe in recognizing him as such, even though I have never seen his face)Swarm is a troll. (He) often goes overboard with fiery opinions and contradictions of others' points, but if you give him two posts, he usually either recants or expresses himself in a more acceptable manner. I'm curious if any of the troll accusers were here for LWPD's more caustic sermons? Bottom line, while he can be disturbingly and unnecessarily blunt, he's no troll. Some have raised Swarm to the level of board God (I always laugh when people warn others of incurring his wrath - as if you couldn't simply ignore it or view it as childish and disrespectful), but at the end of the day, I like to think of him as a great guy and a fiercely loyal promoter who has taken a radio jock persona and turned it into a controversial style on these boards.
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Nov 13, 2005 22:28:41 GMT -5
See, I watch ALL wrestling taped, but I don't do spoilers...so I don't care. I grew up on taped wrestling...what do I care if Smackdown's a week old, if I still don't know who's going to win and what's going to happen (outside of what I can deduce from years of watching wrestling)...
With Raw, if I say "I'm not watching this sh*t!", its because its unentertaining, not because its not live. Taped goodness is MUCH better than live crap.
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Post by MikeMcKinney on Nov 13, 2005 22:39:23 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't understand why everyone talks up Raw AND TNA so much when Smackdown CLEARLY rules them both...=P WWE even desperately tried to save Taboo Tuesday by pulling their two most over wrestlers (Batista and Matt Hardy) onto the show! Spin doctoring is fun. This whole "such and such isn't a TRUE wrestling fan" is getting as tired as the "Since when is soandso a legend!?!?!" that keeps popping up on the Legends forum. Me, I only watch all three major shows because I get enjoyment out of all three major shows. If you are getting nothing from them, then for the love of God find something else to watch. Now Bill Watts' Mid-South/UWF...THAT was how you pack an hour. Well said Tommy the UWF was the best damn hour of wrestling EVER!!!!! As for Swarm, he's a good guy just very opinionated. Sometime he can really get to people(even me on occasion) but he loves wrestling. But not a troll just stating his opinion as we all do on here!! That why we have these fourms to agree and disagree...Sometime we all agree most of the time we don't, but thats life. tkx again |
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Post by pikemojo on Nov 14, 2005 3:53:15 GMT -5
I kinda laid into Swarm a few months ago and then later apologized and have since decided to keep my mouth shut when I feel he is going way overboard. I am sure he and I will never agree on certain issues but I can be a man and ignore certain things he says and in the end respect his opinions as being his opinions. I will speak my opinions on things that he talks about but it is just plain stupid to attack anybody for their opinion.
As for Kurt Angle and match psychology, he is very, very good. He constantly works over the leg with different leg holds usually a grapvine type. He also uses suplexes to wear down the back of the opponent for the Angle Slam. That keeps the opponent guessing as to which finisher he has planned for them. Sometimes he even uses the ankle lock a few times to wear down the opponent for a later ankle lock.
Swarm, I didn't know you were a fisherman either. All this supposed trolling you have been doing. Did you catch anything?
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Post by Shon Maxx on Nov 14, 2005 18:23:16 GMT -5
Okay my turn...
My friend let me borrow a few TNA DVD's, so most of my input is based on those, and the 3-4 shows I caught, plus the results i've read about. They're in no way complete.
Overall, TNA has potential but Jarrett's time is up. They're using the Flair storyline with him where he holds the title for a while (and in his matches he gets destroyed but keeps the title), loses it to a huge pop, only to regain it quickly. This may have worked in the past, but it becomes predictable after a while. Who wants to cheer for the face when you know that A)Jarrett will walk away with the belt, or B)Jarrett will lose the belt only to get it back very soon.
As for Jarrett being the only real talent, I'll disagree. They have talent who know how to perform in and out of the ring, they just don't use them. I'm referring specifically to Hardy, Killings, and Konnan. Styles will be a star in the future, but he needs to work on his mic skills.
The rest of the group needs to work on establishing characters and personalties as well as telling a story in the ring. Spots get boring if you don't care about the guys in the ring (yes, I'm loosly quoting Mick Foley). That's why Cena gets a bigger pop for a top-rope axe handle than Bentley would for a spinning moonsault.
I'm not saying the WWE is perfect. As of recently, the only reason I watch Raw is Angle. I may be missing something, but at this point, that's the only wrestler I find interesting enough to watch. (I give props to Cena and have nothing against him; I just don't enjoy watching him).
Now, Swarm, you based your view one one show so you may or may not be completely correct in your view. But that's fine because you're just as entitled to vent as I was 2 weeks ago when I got p!$$ed at seeing Vader used as a stooge (yes and the fall that I'll pretend didn't happen), and storylines seemingly thrown together.
Now as for Swarm being a troll, I disagree. I only know him on the boards, and yes he's loud, brash, and in your face, but that's how he is. Granted, I don't agree with his sometimes grouping people together (TNA fans are WWE haters, etc.), but that's the point of these threads...to discuss and sometimes disagree.
If you have an opinion, post it. If you disagree with someone, fine. If you're totally p!$$ed off by a show and you want to vent, go ahead. If you get out of hand, someone will let you know.
In short, it's conversation and discussion, not trolling.
And if this internet screws up my message (considering its length), I'm going to go off in ways that'll make Swarm look tame!
Okay, I'm done.
Take care,
Jay
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Post by knapik1 on Nov 14, 2005 23:55:44 GMT -5
I disagree immensely with Swarm, but you guys calling him a troll for thinking differently than you is absurd. This is a message board to post opinions and encourage conversation.
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Post by william on Nov 15, 2005 10:41:50 GMT -5
Very interesting posts. Just for the record, I watch both WWE and TNA, and I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Swarm, other than reading his posts. With that said, I did not, and have not ever taken any offense to any post that he has made. Some of his posts are very funny, and the rest I agree with. Keep on posting Swarm, and get those belts done!
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Post by swarm on Nov 15, 2005 19:35:06 GMT -5
Very interesting posts. Just for the record, I watch both WWE and TNA, and I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Swarm, other than reading his posts. With that said, I did not, and have not ever taken any offense to any post that he has made. Some of his posts are very funny, and the rest I agree with. Keep on posting Swarm, and get those belts done! I'm working on them guys. I promise I will get them done! I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo busy right now as I've started my new career as a mortgage banker, but I WILL GET THEM DONE! I like making them for you guys as much as you like getting them, believe me! and THANK YOU to you guys who have said nice things about me, on this thread, and in others...it really means a ton to me. I love to have my own persona and attitude, ( I like being me) but it's nice to know my *friends* and some of the *friends* I haven't met, understand me and my style. all ya all keep cool now, swarm |
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Post by Omen on Nov 15, 2005 20:42:56 GMT -5
Swarm, I almost had my Swarm do a in ring interview show, like the Cabana, based on your board style.... Keep up stirring the nest so what if someone gets stung. that's what bees do ;D
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Post by lordrahl on Nov 15, 2005 22:35:47 GMT -5
I watch both WWE and TNA, and I feel like the WWE is crap right now because they've been putting in 4-5 matches on a 2 hour show. I like TNA because even though I don't know or really care for a lot of their wrestlers, they wrestle almost the entire hour with the announcers keeping you up to date on why someone hates someone or the like. I don't need Triple H to come out every night and talk for 15 minutes on why he should be world champion or why Ric is over the hill. I really don't need to see Vinnie Mac shoving his hand into someones chocolate factory and pulling out toys. That for that. As for Swarm.....if you don't like him don't post on his threads, if he offends you post that you were offended. I don't understand how if you feel offended by a post the first reaction is to try and insult the member (or guest) who posted it. I especially don't understand after they edited their post to be less offensive the name calling and insults continue because the person cleaned up the post?
As for Jeff Jarrett. Look throughout wrestling history. If you don't have a face that can carry the company you turn to the most hated heel. I don't like Jarrett, but until Christian Cage turns heel I think he is the best person to carry the company.
Keep the Faith, Lose the Hate
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Post by Mike M on Nov 16, 2005 16:40:31 GMT -5
I personally think that TNA is little more than an indy fed with a TV deal, but I think there are some great wrestlers (Monty Brown, A.J. Styles) and some good matches, and I think that there's enought there to ignore poor production values and a high spot versus psychology ratio - for now. The fact that it's a taped show, in front of a free audience, in the same building every time does take some of the excitement out of the crowd. Brown looks like a monster, but any time I've seen him on the mic, it's been terrible. He, and a great many other guys on the roster certainly have potential (see Daniels, AMW, Abyss, etc), but they haven't seemed to be able to put it all together yet- especially Styles IMO. Hawk, I'm not sure what you've been watching, but Kurt Angle went from teasing / setting up the Angle Slam to threatening with the Ankle Lock to creating an eerie sense that he could take you out at any time with either move to entering the ring with such a repertoire and a great win/loss record that he IS the psychology now. Hawk, I don't have any problem with you, but I've got to go with Ringsyde on this one- Angle's one of the best in the business today and is as credible as any professional wrestler that I've seen. Finally, I don't think my friend (I think I'm safe in recognizing him as such, even though I have never seen his face)Swarm is a troll. (He) often goes overboard with fiery opinions and contradictions of others' points, but if you give him two posts, he usually either recants or expresses himself in a more acceptable manner. I'm curious if any of the troll accusers were here for LWPD's more caustic sermons? Bottom line, while he can be disturbingly and unnecessarily blunt, he's no troll. Some have raised Swarm to the level of board God (I always laugh when people warn others of incurring his wrath - as if you couldn't simply ignore it or view it as childish and disrespectful), but at the end of the day, I like to think of him as a great guy and a fiercely loyal promoter who has taken a radio jock persona and turned it into a controversial style on these boards. Amen. I'd argue that posting on his thread for the sole purpose of calling him a troll is kind of trolling in and of itself. Bottom line is that Swarm can rub people the wrong way, but he's no troll. If you don't like him, avoid threads that he starts. Simple. |
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Post by tafkaga on Nov 16, 2005 22:50:27 GMT -5
This is the final word I'll say on this. I'm not sure if some people even saw Swarm's original post, because he edited it when me and one other individual called him on it.
His original post said:
"I watched TNA tonite cause I have the flu and my God, what a horrible wrestling product this is...I'm sorry...I'm convinced the people who like this garbage are WWE haters through and through, not real wrestling fans."
Saying TNA is garbage is absolutely fine. But it's when you say that TNA fans aren't real wrestling fans (which he went back and edited out)... that's what you call trolling, because it is said for no reason other than to provoke fans of TNA.
Provoking intelligent discussion... that's cool.
Provoking a friendly debate... that's cool.
Provoking people to anger by insulting them... that's trolling.
Definition of insult:
1. [n] a deliberately offensive act or something producing the effect of an affront; "turning his back on me was a deliberate insult"
2. [n] a rude expression intended to offend or hurt; "when a student made a stupid mistake he spared them no abuse"; "they yelled insults at the visiting team"
3. [v] treat, mention, or speak to rudely; "He insulted her with his rude remarks"
Harrassing someone in PM's and saying I better "watch my step" if we're ever both at Galacticon... that's a juvenile threat.
I don't care how many people come to his aid, the truth is in the text. Now this topic is dead to me.
Au revoir topic.
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Post by lordrahl on Nov 16, 2005 23:08:02 GMT -5
Tafkaga, you might not even see this post since you said you're done with this. To be honest I don't like most of Swarm's post's, but I can deal with it. It's when people start throwing stones back that is stupid(I'm not saying any of you ARE stupid, but to insult someone because you're offended isn't the answer). I'm sure Swarm, being the man that he is, would apologize if u just said the post offended you. When he saw that he was offending people (besides those who just went off) he changed his post to what it is now. I am a TNA fan through and through, but first of all I'm a fan of open opinion. You don't have to hate to respond to a post you don't like.
And if Swarm PM'ed you to say "better watch your step" at Galacticon, then it means he's not a man. If Swarm did PM you with this I'll see him at Galacticon and say hi!heheheheehehehhehehe!
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