Support Geno's Steaks in S. Phily

[gwffantrav]

I know we have a few Phlly guys on the board, so show your support for Geno's Steaks in South Philly!!! Go out there tomorrow and buy something on the menu to show the city of Phily this establishment won't be bullied!!!

[Trent Lawless]

That place is on very shaky legal grounds, I think. I'm not giving an opinion on whether they're right or wrong. Just saying that the court system could slap 'em silly. English is not established as this country's official language. They don't seem to have much of a case for denying service to anyone based on their competency in that language.

But hey, it's their money. If they want to pee it away over making a stand that nobody will remember in six months, that's their business. Personally, I think they're pretty dumb to do it. I'd never set myself up for the inevitable legal battle that's coming if this business was the income that supported my family. It could all be gone if a judge decides that they've gone too far. Wouldn't be worth it to me.

But I'm just a social liberal/fiscal conservative. What do I know?

[ringsyde]

If the store did something so stupid as to descriminate based on language, I hope the fine folks of Philly avoid this place like the plague.

How utterly stupid and truly un-American of an institution -IN PHILLY- to turn someone away over language. I thought the flag and that great lady standing on our eastern seabord both symbolized brotherhood, acceptance and respect for diversity. Certainly, the city of Philly does.

[pistonhurricane]

I ate there 2 weeks ago when i was in town for Wizard World. The food was awesome! I will, however, tell you guys a story:

I was with 2 fellow artist (we'll call them T and M) and T's wife... over the 4 days we were in town we decided to have "the Great Philly Cheese Steak Eat Off." to determine for all time which Philly would rule supreme.

We had already eatten at Jims (awesome, by the way.) so sunday we decide to do Genos and the one (name escapes me right now... a little help Mr. Steel?) across the street. T and his wife, who are from Philly, tell M and I to go to the other one while they head across the street to Genos. We each would order 2 phillys to the specified desire and when we returned to the hotel were we could each have one from both. (dont know if that makes sense...anyway...) The reason behind this, im told, is that Genos will refuse phillys to those that approach with a competitors product and they actually will get quite mean about it...

Im looking at the celebrities pictures on the wall as i was asked what i wanted from the kid at the register... ther was a sign for "Rookies" on how to order. I guess they are particular i how they want things done. I ordered and stood to the side ao M could order behind me. The kid at the register saw my superman tattoos and flipped... he told they guys working the grill to check them out. There was a cool scene were we showed each other our ink... they had a lot of Puerto Rican pride stuff ( Crosses, Flags etc. w/ Puerto Rico written EVERYWHERE) They were cool with me and asked if i wanted it "in a bag". I said yes.

M goes to order. He never says "put it in a bag" so they send out 2 phillys on paper plates. M rolls his eyes and looks at me, starts to wrap them up and stuff them in my bag. The guy on the grill says - "Hey @$$hole!! We aint #uck!n' mind readers... you want it in a bag, SAY put it in a bag!!" I politely remind M that we are visitors and not to start anything.

We start off for Genos to meet T and the wife and as we walk past the line that has formed some local guy shouts at M - "Next time te'll em you want it in a bag, @$$hole." Ha ha, part of me laughed on the inside.

These guys are kinda like the soup nazis of south philly... its a different, but tastey, world up there...

[gwffantrav]

ringsyde said:

If the store did something so stupid as to discriminate based on language, I hope the fine folks of Philly avoid this place like the plague.

How utterly stupid and truly un-American of an institution -IN PHILLY- to turn someone away over language. I thought the flag and that great lady standing on our eastern seabord both symbolized brotherhood, acceptance and respect for diversity. Certainly, the city of Philly does.

So, what you are saying that the govt should tell people how to run their business and, despite their hard work, it shouldn't matter. Hell, if there is a black restaurant and they wanted to only serve black people...you know what I'd think? More power to ya. You know why Ring..because it is America. There is no rule that people have to serve ya. It's your business. Granted, you may hurt yourself by alienating a potential customer base....but if that's what they wanna do...

Let me ask you a question then Ring (or Mark). How come you don't see the ACLU picketing restaurants that say, "You can only eat with a tie" or "Proper dress required"? Ahhh, probably only counts for "minorities" in the ACLU or your type cases right?

I see a restaurant that says, "Tie only" or whatever...I don't go crying to a f-ing lawyer or the evil itself, the ACLU...you know what I do...go to the next F-INGA restaurant!

So please, Ring, or whoever else, please explain the italics to me. Pleaseeeee... Isn't that discriminatory? Of course, and any restaurants like that in your town...call the ACLU today and have them shut down!

[swarm]

gwffantrav said:

ringsyde said:

If the store did something so stupid as to discriminate based on language, I hope the fine folks of Philly avoid this place like the plague.

How utterly stupid and truly un-American of an institution -IN PHILLY- to turn someone away over language. I thought the flag and that great lady standing on our eastern seaboard both symbolized brotherhood, acceptance and respect for diversity. Certainly, the city of Philly does.

So, what you are saying that the govt should tell people how to run their business and, despite their hard work, it shouldn't matter. Hell, if there is a black restaurant and they wanted to only serve black people...you know what I'd think? More power to ya. You know why Ring..because it is America. There is no rule that people have to serve ya. It's your business. Granted, you may hurt yourself by alienating a potential customer base....but if that's what they wanna do...

Let me ask you a question then Ring (or Mark). How come you don't see the ACLU picketing restaurants that say, "You can only eat with a tie" or "Proper dress required"? Ahhh, probably only counts for "minorities" in the ACLU or your type cases right?

I see a restaurant that says, "Tie only" or whatever...I don't go crying to a f-ing lawyer or the evil itself, the ACLU...you know what I do...go to the next F-INGA restaurant!

So please, Ring, or whoever else, please explain the italics to me. Pleaseeeee... Isn't that discriminatory? Of course, and any restaurants like that in your town...call the ACLU today and have them shut down!

Trav is right. While it may leave a bitter taste in the mouth's of a few, a business owner can ans should run his or her business the way they want too.

I worked as a bouncer for many, many years and hundreds of times the owner of the bar would let us know there were certain "minorities" he or she did not want in the bar...so we came up with any reason we wanted to not let them in...

fights started, people got hurt, and it was sometimes pretty damn obvious who we were picking on...beleive me, it wasn't fun.

but no one ever got sued, or picketed cause like Trav says, it is America and a business has the choice who they want as their customer base...maybe that's cold, but it's true.

[ThePunisher]

Any business can refuse the right to serve anyone based on whatever they want. That's another great thing about America. You can have an opinion on everything and not get executed for it.

Soon enough the official language of the US will be English so I really don't think this business will have too much of a legal problem. You know some publicity starved conservative lawyer would sign themselves up for this fight just to have a place in the history books.

Not trying to start a political battle but more power to this place. I am proud to be an English speaking American and I really don't look forward to ever being annexed by Mexico (figuratively not literally) by the huge influx of that culture (no disrespect to that culture...Latin American people can do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with what I or you want). I'm fine with a mixing pot but when one starts to grab the majority like this something has to be done.

[Chris Ingersoll]

thepunisher said:

Not trying to start a political battle but more power to this place. I am proud to be an English speaking American and I really don't look forward to ever being annexed by Mexico (figuratively not literally) by the huge influx of that culture (no disrespect to that culture...Latin American people can do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with what I or you want). I'm fine with a mixing pot but when one starts to grab the majority like this something has to be done.

When one what starts to grab the majority? One culture? And if so, why is the "something" that has to be done the elevation of another specific culture (Anglo-European, in this case)?

If you're going to mix, then mix. Don't over-compensate -- that jsut ruins the recipe.

[ThePunisher]

One culture takes a majority grasp over the others. My problem with this isn't the culture; it is the what the usurption of culture correlates to the mix of the population. Anyone who is aware of the landscape of the U.S. knows how those of European-descent will be vastly outnumbered by those of Mexican origin in about 20 to 30 years. I have no problem with Mexican culture; I dislike the trend of physical population. Maybe my problem is unfounded. I just like my country and the ideals associated (even though they are getting less important in society by the day). I am assuming that this country will be an extension of Mexico and not that of the present. And I can't count the ways I prefer the U.S. way of life to that of Mexican life.

If you want to lump all of the European countries together as if they have the exact same culture then that's your call. Historically this nation started with English culture exclusively. The other European nations had some influence and it expanded. Those cultures mixed and blended over time. I am apprehensive to believe that Mexican culture will blend as well instead of simply overtaking the Euro-Afro-American culture (again based on population, not the culture).

Making English the official language of our country would one of the many facets of the culture that could help to assimilate Mexican culture instead of competing with it.

I will say this just in case its been overlooked: NO CULTURE IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER IN MY OPINION. I strongly believe that each person should be able to do anything they wish as long as it does not hurt or affect someone else's way of life. If you want to do drugs in your house, fine. But don't get in a car and drive around messed up because you are potentially harming others.

To be fair and show that I'm not some horrible bigot, I'll be happy to admit that it is the fault of the Caucasian majority that this is an issue. If we weren't too busy always whining about someone else's way of life maybe we could focus and spread our own. It is also our "fault" that we aren't procreating like we used to. It just doesn't make socioeconomic sense any more but that's our own choice. But then again, Al Gore and Clinton say that the climate will change, disallowing any human male from being fertile. Don't even get me started there.

Maybe my fears are unfounded. Hopefully, I'll live to an age where I can see what happens and only then will anyone truly know the answer.

[ringsyde]

gwffantrav said:

ringsyde said:

If the store did something so stupid as to discriminate based on language, I hope the fine folks of Philly avoid this place like the plague.

How utterly stupid and truly un-American of an institution -IN PHILLY- to turn someone away over language. I thought the flag and that great lady standing on our eastern seabord both symbolized brotherhood, acceptance and respect for diversity. Certainly, the city of Philly does.

So, what you are saying that the govt should tell people how to run their business and, despite their hard work, it shouldn't matter. Hell, if there is a black restaurant and they wanted to only serve black people...you know what I'd think? More power to ya. You know why Ring..because it is America. There is no rule that people have to serve ya. It's your business. Granted, you may hurt yourself by alienating a potential customer base....but if that's what they wanna do...

Let me ask you a question then Ring (or Mark). How come you don't see the ACLU picketing restaurants that say, "You can only eat with a tie" or "Proper dress required"? Ahhh, probably only counts for "minorities" in the ACLU or your type cases right?

I see a restaurant that says, "Tie only" or whatever...I don't go crying to a f-ing lawyer or the evil itself, the ACLU...you know what I do...go to the next F-INGA restaurant!

So please, Ring, or whoever else, please explain the italics to me. Pleaseeeee... Isn't that discriminatory? Of course, and any restaurants like that in your town...call the ACLU today and have them shut down!

1. Who is Mark? My stage name is RingsYde, and my government name is Steven Williams.

2. The American Civil Liberties Union makes about as much sense to me as the government does . . . NONE!! That said, the ACLU and Jesse Jackson and a few other morons often-times too willing to turn a problem into a photo op DID recently picket and harangue a local restaurant for a "Suit & Tie" policy.

3. Ties don't matter. Ties are parts of dress that are luxuries, and they are fairly interchangeable. My heritage, the heritage of Mexicans, Italians, Asians, women, etc isn't always so interchangeable. To discriminate based on either is really idiotic, but last I checked, more lives have been lost, battles fought, legislation passed and progression made as the result of race/culture-based growth and acceptance than for neckwear. I do understand that one of the battles of the Civil War was marked by a confederate sargeant stealing dead Union officers' ties.

4. In the America I was raised in (the one my father was almost lynched in because he was black - TRUE STORY), diversity is celebrated, cultural differences are explored and expostulated and ties don't mean diddly.

5. I don't recall saying ANYTHING about the government being involved with this business. If you read my post - THE ONE YOU QUOTED - I recall saying the people (the folks conservatives and ultra-right wingers seem to take for granted with all the high minded "if you don't do/say/believe this, you're a terrorist/liar/racist/victim/big government backer) should avoid this place - that clearly does not understand customer service at all (see pistonhurricane's post and do some research on why this place is getting heat)- like the plague.

On a side note, nice to see deadringer actually enter a politcal discussion. I recall politics being on the list of things that honk him off and get people beat up if he's forced to be involved in.

[swarm]

ringsyde said:

gwffantrav said:

On a side note, nice to see deadringer actually enter a politcal discussion. I recall politics being on the list of things that honk him off and get people beat up if he's forced to be involved in.

I have clearly stated that normally I do not discuss politics, religion, or race because it never ends up good, but never have I said anyone gets beat up or forces (haha) me too discuss such things with them.

I understand you get all fired up on occasion and tend to lash out at your objectors, and that's fine, but if you are going to jab at me, let's at least "keep it real".

swarm

[ringsyde]

swarm said:

gwffantrav said:

I worked as a bouncer for many, many years and hundreds of times the owner of the bar would let us know there were certain "minorities" he or she did not want in the bar...so we came up with any reason we wanted to not let them in...

fights started, people got hurt, and it was sometimes pretty damn obvious who we were picking on...beleive me, it wasn't fun.

but no one ever got sued, or picketed cause like Trav says, it is America and a business has the choice who they want as their customer base...maybe that's cold, but it's true.

And this guy threw a fit when I suggested he had a bit of a racial bent or was at least so inclined.

Deadringer, you may not be a bigot, but by not challenging this clearly stupid ideal (unless someone can produce positive proof that ALL members of one race are trouble - or even the same in any way, for that matter- barring people based on race is, well, stupid) you bought into something far worse than "the business can pick and choose it's clientel", and you displayed a cowradice or apathy that's frankly inexcuseable.

I have a fair amount of scars, physical and otherwise, that stemmed from fighting to include whites in Black Student Organizations, to allow African Americans and Latinos to move into neighborhoods and communities that feared such a thing would result in social decay, to change the wrong-minded notions of people too stupid to see that his color, her sexuality and my beliefs don't automatically mean we are a threat to you, your business or your lifestyle.

I'm often accused of a pro-black agenda - likely because I am black and I have opinions that I share openly. As I've mentioned before, I have experienced a great deal of success, recognition and respect in my life because my blackness, my pride and my love of my heritage has NEVER stood in the way of my love and respect for America, ALL of it's people and all of its blessings. If anything, it's helped me to be honored for diversity in employment and business practices, to be honored as an outstanding student teacher and an outstanding guest teacher (in the same year-my first!!), and it's helped me to feel good about saying that anyone assinine enough to believe all whites are evil, all blacks are thieves and thugs, all mexicans are lazy and the ACLU is the shield carried by the INTELLIGENT minorities simply does not understand the world he/she inhabits.

[ringsyde]

swarm said:

ringsyde said:

gwffantrav said:

On a side note, nice to see deadringer actually enter a politcal discussion. I recall politics being on the list of things that honk him off and get people beat up if he's forced to be involved in.

I have clearly stated that normally I do not discuss politics, religion, or race because it never ends up good, but never have I said anyone gets beat up or forces (haha) me too discuss such things with them.

I understand you get all fired up on occasion and tend to lash out at your objectors, and that's fine, but if you are going to jab at me, let's at least "keep it real".

swarm

In one of my threads on race, you somewhat proudly and cautiosly warned me to drop the subject because the last time someone discussed race, politics or religion with you, you beat the h**l out of him.

I don't lash out, by the way. I tend to test those with "short tempers and big muscles" as a way of saying clearly threats, taunts, and close ties don't really impress me. It seems there was a time that this was the case between us. I've moved on. Don't you also think it's time?

[Mad Dog]

He hasn't actually turned anyone away because of this. The sign is a request that you order in a certain language. What good does it do him or his business if people come in and order and he can't understand them? It's pretty common sense that he would want to be able to understand you.

There's a lot of knee jerk racism charges flying around from the press and certain crybaby types that are suing him.

[Tournament Master]

First of all, Geno's steaks suck. If you are in Philly, go accross the street to Pat's, which have the best cheesesteaks on the planet. (Pistonhurricane, I hope Pats was on your Cheesesteak Eat off...Jims is good, but Pats blows it away...heck they invented the darn thing).

Second of all, I usually to enter political discussions...especially when Trav is involved (still waiting on the blackmail buddy!). However, while I don't agree with discrimination,as long as a business is private, it should be able to exclude who they want from entering the business, atleast according to the law. The Boy Scouts can exclude gays, since they are a private organization, which I thought was wrong and I'm an Eagle Scout (of course that screwed them when they were told they could no longer use Federal land for their Jamborees). I doubt Genos's is getting any public funding, but this could certainly come back to bite them on the butt in some way.

I think its assinine to turn away business for prejudice, but its not me running that business. Perhaps they don't want to pay for bilingual cashiers, who knows. I'm sure they will lose out on more business over the years, as the Latino population grows.

[Tournament Master]

markcpc said:

But I'm just a social liberal/fiscal conservative. What do I know?

Glad to see another Libertarian on the board.

[ringsyde]

Since I've been asked to "keep it real" (still looking for the quote from the thread - I assume this is the "real" issue), I'm a bit of a libertarian myself.

[swarm]

ringsyde said:

swarm said:

ringsyde said:

I have clearly stated that normally I do not discuss politics, religion, or race because it never ends up good, but never have I said anyone gets beat up or forces (haha) me too discuss such things with them.

I understand you get all fired up on occasion and tend to lash out at your objectors, and that's fine, but if you are going to jab at me, let's at least "keep it real".

swarm

In one of my threads on race, you somewhat proudly and cautiously warned me to drop the subject because the last time someone discussed race, politics or religion with you, you beat the h**l out of him.

I don't lash out, by the way. I tend to test those with "short tempers and big muscles" as a way of saying clearly threats, taunts, and close ties don't really impress me. It seems there was a time that this was the case between us. I've moved on. Don't you also think it's time?

I didn't read your entire first rant but I read enough to counter it. I am not "challenging" anything. Hell, I'm not even supporting what this restaurant did. All I did was support a "fact" with a "story". That's it.

as far as your second set of comments in which you so proudly try to make me out to be a short-tempered, big muscled gang leader who kicks the crap out of anyone who who tries to talk race, religion, or politics with me (really, you should be on TV with the drama skills you so clearly possess)...

what i actually said was...something along the lines of "I do not like to discuss race, religion or politics...because of the fact they never end up good..." and then shared a story of being involved in a fight with someone stemming from a racial discussion...one story...one time...

And since you brought it up, and so happily decided to try and make me out to be such a racist maniac I will share the story with you here and then you can tell me if you understand a little bit better...

I dated a black girl in college. I was introduced to some of her friends at a party...her friend "Nasty" as he liked to be called, called me "white boy" "cracker" and "sugar" in about the span of 20 minutes after meeting him...

after she embarrassed him with a racial comment of her own, he took it upon himself to confront me...after about a 3 minutes discussion about race, which I tried to avoid, he tells me I "have to go...nobody wants your white a** round here..."

Wrong.

So a fight starts, and "Nasty" pulls a knife on me, so I kicked his teeth down his throat.

that's it. Nobody got beat up because they wanted to talk race, or religion or politics with me.

There was nothing good about trying to discuss race with this guy and I tried my hardest to avoid it because, like I said, which was proved then, and is being proved now with your ridiculous rants as if some of us actually were the ones who tried to lynch your father, nothing good can ever come out of it.

I'm out.

[ringsyde]

BINGO!!

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=WWE&action=display&thread=1130294685

In this thread, you posted your list (post #2 of the thread, your first) of things yo avoid discussing. You later explained what happened to the last person who crossed the line (post #8, your second).

Granted, you don't overtly say you'd beat up someone for talking politics, but you make your preference clear.

Here's your exact quote:
Ok then, let me put it to you like this...I like you. I think your cool, so I don't want to talk race with you. Why? The last black guy who tried to shove his thoughts and beliefs down my throat got his teeth kicked in by me.

Did I start the fight? No. He swung on me. He swung on me cause he got so loud, and so animated I walked away...and he didn't like that. But do you think everyone took my side? No. Because I hurt him real bad, it turned into a white vs. black thing. What it really was, was a "please shut the [censored] up and watch the game" thing.

In another case, I have had a catholic come into my house, and tell me word for word "you are going to hell." because I have had sex out of marrige. How would that make you feel? How am I supposed to have a constructive conversation with someone like that?

So I kindly ask that you not challenge me by questioning my motives.

Reading this latest disclosure sheds new light, but your initial story makes you sound very insecure and emotional about blacks.

Look, you (and everyone else) can make all the "You should be on TV" cracks you want (shows your maturity, ability to be criticized and called to task without losing your cool, not mine), and you can assume what you want. I didn't call you short tempered and big muscled; I was refering to a pretty common description of you by those of us who read your threads about everything from being able to beat Sting up to being a bouncer to beating up a black guy at a party to threatening other members to (insert short-tempered, bully display by Swarm/Deadringer here). We DO talk from time to time.

I don't know if you keep up, but I did make a very public apology for losing my cool with you-which you completely ignored, by the way:
cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=announcement&action=display&thread=1137188866

I've often extended the olive branch to you- NOT because I need to or because I desire your approval. I did so, and I get in your face now because I (still- thank you, JESUS) respect you, and I'm trying to be less of an butt and more of a responsible member of our little community.

You keep insulting and misunderstanding me, Rob. It wont change who either of us are, and it wont stop me from being Steve.

Don't you also think it's time?

[swarm]

ringsyde said:

BINGO!!

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?board=WWE&action=display&thread=1130294685

In this thread, you posted your list (post #2 of the thread, your first) of things yo avoid discussing. You later explained what happened to the last person who crossed the line (post #8, your second).

Granted, you don't overtly say you'd beat up someone for talking politics, but you make your preference clear.

Here's your exact quote:
Ok then, let me put it to you like this...I like you. I think your cool, so I don't want to talk race with you. Why? The last black guy who tried to shove his thoughts and beliefs down my throat got his teeth kicked in by me.

Did I start the fight? No. He swung on me. He swung on me cause he got so loud, and so animated I walked away...and he didn't like that. But do you think everyone took my side? No. Because I hurt him real bad, it turned into a white vs. black thing. What it really was, was a "please shut the [censored] up and watch the game" thing.

In another case, I have had a catholic come into my house, and tell me word for word "you are going to hell." because I have had sex out of marriage. How would that make you feel? How am I supposed to have a constructive conversation with someone like that?

So I kindly ask that you not challenge me by questioning my motives.

Reading this latest disclosure sheds new light, but your initial story makes you sound very insecure and emotional about blacks.

Look, you (and everyone else) can make all the "You should be on TV" cracks you want (shows your maturity, ability to be criticized and called to task without loosing your cool, not mine), and you can assume what you want. I didn't call you short tempered and big muscled; I was referring to a pretty common description of you by those of us who read your threads about everything from being able to beat Sting up to being a bouncer to beating up a black guy at a party to threatening other members to (insert short-tempered, bully display by Swarm/Deadringer here). We DO talk from time to time.

I don't know if you keep up, but I did make a very public apology for losing my cool with you back in December (or January or whenever the hell it was) and I've often extended the olive branch. NOT because I need to or because I desire your approval. I did so, and I get in your face now because I (still- thank you, JESUS) respect you, and I'm trying to be less of an butt and more of a responsible member of our little community.

You keep insulting and misunderstanding me, Rob. It wont change who either of us are, and it wont stop me from being Steve.

Don't you also think it's time?

time for what? You go out of your way to find a thread I posted how long ago, to prove what point?

Insecure and emotional around blacks? Do you understand how stupid you sound?

I'm not the one being insulting and going out of my way to try and pin you to a cross...you are.

this was a thread that started about a restaurant, and like in the past, you have spilled your views and beliefs all over it, and single-handily turned it into a "black" thing. again.

all I did was share a story...sorry if I was a bouncer for 7 years...

and for the last time, and I have kept my mouth shut about this for long enough...I am sick of you, tommy brownell and a few others constantly saying I have a "history" of physically threatening other board members...how the F you don't earn a suspension for saying such is beyond me...

Tafgata was sending me numerous PM's goading me on and taunting me, and in one pm he mentioned something about going to GCON and how he "dared" me to bully him there...my response was "if you see me at GCON, it would be in your best interest to watch your step."

That is not a physical threat. "WHEN I SEE YOU AT GCON I AM GOING TO KICK THE [censored] CRAP OUT OF YOU" is a threat.

excuse me for trying to draw the line with someone I clearly hated and who annoyed me to no end in case he should attend a similar function as myself, which I would rather much spend with my friends, than going back and forth with him.

with that said, I'm an out of this discussion. I do like you Ringsyde, but I hate the fact that you can so easily draw me in to these retarded discussions about race which always end up with you pasting either a pm of mine, or a past post, all over the boards for everyone to see as you point your finger at big bad swarm and expose me for the raging, racist, fist-fighting, life-threatening troll that you take me for.

In close, I do support the restaurant. It;s theirs, so they can do what they want with it.