The Stamina Method for Matches

[Stu]

(Hi folks, I'm posting this method/house rule in a few different forums, as I'm looking for feedback on it, and wanted to give it as much exposure as possible. Thanks in advance for your time, I've been working on it for a long time, and am still tinkering with it.)

THE STAMINA METHOD

Wrestling is a sport where the object is to wear your opponent down enough to successfully pin him, either over a long period of time or quickly. A wrestler’s individual endurance, or STAMINA, plays a large roll in determining how long he can withstand his opponent’s attack. The only thing missing from the wonderful game engine Tom Filsinger designed in my opinion is a more accurate method to reflect the impact of a wrestler’s stamina in determining the course of a match. Having played countless tabletop sports games where stamina is a big factor in the individual card ratings, I have adapted this method and have applied it to the COTG world.

This is still a system under experimentation. I welcome any and all feedback on it. I wanted a way where it was the time and punishment absorbed of a match that played the biggest role in how fatigued, and thus susceptible to a pin, a wrestler was, not just how many pinfall attempts he’s suffered. While this will admittedly add another layer of “stat-keeping” to a match, in my opinion it will more accurately reflect this “wear-down” element of the sport of wrestling.

The most important thing one needs to do is be as accurate as possible in assigning stamina ratings to wrestlers. The great and smaller scientific wrestlers would have relatively high stamina ratings, while a wrestler like the Ultimate Warrior, or in the COTG world Chaos or even Monolith, would probably require lower stamina ratings. Big men get gassed a lot faster, and thus need to put away smaller opponents quickly.

Now, without further adieu, here is the STAMINA METHOD for playing COTG/LOW:

1. First, determine the timing method for the match. 3 options are real time, 1 minute of real time equals 1 ½ minutes of match time, or 1 minute of real time equals 2 minutes of match time.

2. The top stamina ratings for these three timing methods (based upon an average match time of 20 minutes real time) are as follows: 60 for a real time match, 45 for real time equaling 1 ½ minutes of match time, and 30 for real time equaling 2 minutes of match time.

3. From this point forward, assume all matches are timed using the real time equals 2 minutes of match time method. So, a 30 minute real time match would equal a 60 minute match.

4. Assign each wrestler active in your fed a stamina rating. This would be unchanged from match to match. Use the wrestler’s weight and overall statistics to make an accurate assessment. For example, knowing that 30 is the top stamina rating, Prodigy or Danny Hodge may have a stamina rating that is really high, perhaps a 28 or 29, as these are lighter-weight wrestlers with good to great endurance.

5. Now, on to a match. Each wrestler needs a way of recording his stamina that is used up during a match. I suggest using one 20-sided die for each wrestler, placing it directly on each wrestler card, so it can be turned over after each move to reflect his or her stamina used up.

6. Here’s how it works. Each time the wrestler on offense lands or executes a successful move or hold, his opponent will have his stamina reduced by the level of damage that corresponds to that hold. For example, Monolith is wrestling Ted DiBiase, and it is the start of a match. Monolith is on offense. He rolls and lands a level 3 damage move. DiBiase has a 24 stamina rating to start the match, and would have his stamina reduced by 3. (NOTE: If using a 20-sided die to record his stamina, its probably easiest since DiBiase would have a 24 stamina rating to start the die at 4, and when it gets down to 20, move the die to the 20 side or less, and keep counting down. Too bad they don’t make 30-sided die!)

7. Level 1 moves reduce an opponent’s stamina by 1, Level 2 moves reduce an opponent’s stamina by 2, and Level 3 moves reduce an opponent’s stamina by 3. In the case where a finisher is landed, play normally by adding the finisher rating to the pin rating in effect at the time of the finisher being landed, AND reduce the opponent’s stamina by the finisher rating. In our example, if Monolith lands his finisher on DiBiase, DiBiase would roll to see if he’s pinned AND have his stamina reduced by the number corresponding to Monolith’s finisher rating, even if its by 6 (can’t remember Monolith’s finisher rating actually, but wanted to illustrate this for extreme purposes).

8. Each time a wrestler has his stamina rating completely used up, he adds one fatigue token to his pin rating, and then resets his stamina rating to the original rating. For example, Monolith is destroying Ted DiBiase, and has landed 8 straight level 3 damage moves on DiBiase, equaling 24, and using up DiBiase’s stamina rating. DiBiase would now have his pin rating elevated by one, and while I can’t remember exactly what that rating is, let’s say for this example it was originally 5(2), it would now become 6(3).

9. The only way pin tokens are added using the stamina system is by using up the stamina rating. Each and every time a wrestler’s stamina rating is used up, one more fatigue token is added to the pin rating. PINFALL ATTEMPTS DO NOT ADD FATIGUE POINTS TO A WRESTLER’S PIN RATING IN THIS SYSTEM, ONLY USED UP STAMINA RATINGS DO.

10. If a move or hold is reversed, there are no deductions to a wrestler’s stamina rating. This gives an edge to better defensive wrestlers, and makes counters all that more important.

11. Finally, once a wrestler has gone through his stamina rating 4 times, and has added 4 fatigue tokens to his pin rating, he is considered to have suffered a cut, and all ratings, including (pw) and (ag) are reduced by one letter grade or number. If he really takes a beating and adds 8 fatigue tokens, all ratings are reduced by an additional one letter grade (lowest being C) or number (“lowest” in this case being +5).

[LWPD]

It's always a treat to see a contribution from Stu in the House Rules section. He always puts up some solid food for thought. A stamina modality is something I find very intriguing. It's obviously a factor in pro wres...and I can imagine game play instances where it would be cool to make it more of a focus than it usually is. I couldn't see using the concept regularly...but it would be a great add on to a specialty match or something like a tournament.

I see you've left the core concept of devising a 'stamina rating' open ended. While I understand wanting to give players flexibility...providing one (or more) examples of a 'given match' that uses a specific pre-selected equation for 'time' and 'stamina rating' would help to make what you've created more concrete and less abstract. Something along the lines of the old Wolf vs Executioner demo match that Tom provides with the initial set would do wonders in explaining the potential of this concept.

LWPD (I'd encourage other posters to contribute their own ideas on how to possibly calculate a CotG 'stamina rating')

[Stu]

Thanks for the kind words Paint!

Ask and ye shall receive...here's an example from last night.

I ran another trial match between Morpheus and Encubus. I decided to use real time as my timing method for the match, and gave the match a time limit of 30 minutes.

I reviewed both cards, taking into consideration each wrestler's weights and overall abilities. I especially considered the PIN ratings. Giving a very good wrestler a higher stamina rating would in theory increase ever so slightly his ability to win, but personally, I don't mind that.

Morpheus (prime card I should add) is one of the best in COTG history, even considering the more amped up stars of the later years/sets. He is also, at least in my opinion, a burlier wrestler built perhaps in the Bruno Sammartino mold. He should have a high stamina, but not be the perfect "30", as I'd only reserve that for the endurance freaks like a Thesz, a Hodge, etc. He should be able in theory to wrestle a one-hour draw, I could see it with Morpheus even being on the heavier side (I use "official" weights as only guidelines, to me, he's always been 260'sh).

I assigned Morpheus a rating of 27.

Encubus, on the other hand, in my mind is a bit more wiry, built in the mold of an Edge. He also (this is his prime card) has 3 finishers, so he's uber-tough to begin with. But, again, he should have good-to-really good endurance, not perfect, however. And, in historical terms, not on par with Morpheus.

I assigned Encubus a rating of 26.

The match ended in a time limit draw. Morpheus was a bloody mess after 30 minutes, and suffered 5 fatigue tokens worth of damage, or another way of looking at it is he lost over 135 points of stamina during the match. Encubus lost only 14 points of stamina, didn't exceed even once his rating of 26, and therefore didn't receive one fatigue token. As you can tell, this was as one sided as you can get.

Because Morpheus reached my predetermined "4-token equals bleeding" threshold, he had all of his ratings decreased by one. He suffered several nearfalls, but unbelievably, kicked out of every one! I wish I had counted, but didn't.

For me, at least, it worked well. I have two changes, however, I'd make.

1. I think I would make the highest stamina rating, regardless of what timing method one uses, a 20. Admittedly, I play a match very sloooooooowwwwllly, compared to most, liking to visualize every little nuance of a match in my head. With that said, many's the match where the pin tokens reached 7,8, or even upwards of 10. With years upon years of playing, I think by lowering the upper limit on stamina to 20, it will equal what "could" happen in a given match.

2. I needed to clarify what a FINISHER really deducts from an opponent's stamina. When a finisher is rolled, it will deduct a minimum of 3 off the opponent's stamina, plus whatever point value the finisher is rated. For example, Encubus has 2 finishers with (0) ratings. The way I originally wrote out my Stamina method implies that you deduct purely the finisher rating from the opponent's stamina, and roll for a pin. Well, it doesn't make any sense for a wrestler's best move, his finisher, to deduct less than 3 points from his opponent's stamina, it should at the very least equal a Level 3 damage move. And, it really should take a lot of stuffing out of an opponent.

So, in theory, if a guy hits a (+6) finisher on his opponent, it would deduct the 6 points for the finisher rating, PLUS 3 additional points, for a maximum of 9 points off of stamina. This allows for the very powerful finishers to have that much more of an impact.

There you are folks, hope that clears things up a bit. Assigning stamina ratings is very arbitrary at this time, but I'll be doing it for both of my feds, the COTG one and LOW one, over the next few weeks as I incorporate this method in my little corner of the COTG universe at least.

Thanks for the feedback Paint, hope this makes some sense.

-Stu

[Stu]

Paint:

I should add that determing stamina right now is still an abstraction, as I don't have a scientific formula for doing it, like a Statis Pro Basketball which utilized field goals per game plus rebounds per minute plus fouls per game, so forth and so on, to compile a stamina rating.

It's hard to do this with the COTG wrestlers, as you have both number ratings AND letter ratings. But, there's probably a way to do it. For now, I'm just going to use whatever judgement I have from watching six bizmillion hours of wrestling matches to assign realistic ratings (I blame Chad Olson for this! ;D).

[Stu]

Wait a minute Paint, I think I've figured out the formula for determining a wrestler's stamina rating! Here you go (yes, its the Friday before Memorial Day, and I'm fried):

HOW TO DETERMINE A WRESTLER’S STAMINA RATING

-Start with the number 40.
-Subtract all the point values associated with “dazed-1”, “hurt-2”, and “down-3” readings on the three levels of the defensive side of the wrestler’s card. For the PIN rating, subtract the number in parentheses.
-For a wrestler who is over 300 pounds, subtract 6 more points. For a wrestler over 250 pounds, just subtract 3 points.
-The result is the wrestler’s stamina rating for the match.

An example:

(This is an extreme example, using a very stacked defensive side of a made up wrestler, with the tongue-in-cheek name of Big Behemoth).

We’d start with the point value of 40. And, away we go!

-We look at Behemoth’s defensive stats for Level 1, and we see all reversals. So, no points would be deducted from Level 1. On his Level 2 defense, he has 2 “dazed-1” readings, and one “hurt-2” reading, so that adds up to 4 points so far. And, finally, on Level 3, we find that he has 4 “hurt-2” readings, one “down-3” reading, and a PIN Rating of 7(4), for an additional 15 points. So, the TOTAL POINTS to be subtracted from Behemoth’s defensive side of the card are 19.

-Turns out Big Behemoth weighs 325 pounds, so that’s another 6 points deducted.

-TOTAL POINTS DEDUCTED from the original value of 40 then are 25. So, Big Behemoth’s Stamina Rating for the match is 15.

Again, the better the defensive wrestler, the less points he gets deducted from the magical number of 40, so this better stresses the ability of a wrestler to counter or reverse holds and moves. And, it also rewards wrestlers who are better able to absorb punishment, those wrestlers with fewer “down-3” readings and “hurt-2” readings. By using this method, a stamina rating can be derived which should work well using a real time method of timing a match.

[LWPD]

stubucco said:

Wait a minute Paint, I think I've figured out the formula for determining a wrestler's stamina rating! Here you go (yes, its the Friday before Memorial Day, and I'm fried):

HOW TO DETERMINE A WRESTLER’S STAMINA RATING

-Start with the number 40.
-Subtract all the point values associated with “dazed-1”, “hurt-2”, and “down-3” readings on the three levels of the defensive side of the wrestler’s card. For the PIN rating, subtract the number in parentheses.
-For a wrestler who is over 300 pounds, subtract 6 more points. For a wrestler over 250 pounds, just subtract 3 points.
-The result is the wrestler’s stamina rating for the match.

An example:

(This is an extreme example, using a very stacked defensive side of a made up wrestler, with the tongue-in-cheek name of Big Behemoth).

We’d start with the point value of 40. And, away we go!

-We look at Behemoth’s defensive stats for Level 1, and we see all reversals. So, no points would be deducted from Level 1. On his Level 2 defense, he has 2 “dazed-1” readings, and one “hurt-2” reading, so that adds up to 4 points so far. And, finally, on Level 3, we find that he has 4 “hurt-2” readings, one “down-3” reading, and a PIN Rating of 7(4), for an additional 15 points. So, the TOTAL POINTS to be subtracted from Behemoth’s defensive side of the card are 19.

-Turns out Big Behemoth weighs 325 pounds, so that’s another 6 points deducted.

-TOTAL POINTS DEDUCTED from the original value of 40 then are 25. So, Big Behemoth’s Stamina Rating for the match is 15.

Again, the better the defensive wrestler, the less points he gets deducted from the magical number of 40, so this better stresses the ability of a wrestler to counter or reverse holds and moves. And, it also rewards wrestlers who are better able to absorb punishment, those wrestlers with fewer “down-3” readings and “hurt-2” readings. By using this method, a stamina rating can be derived which should work well using a real time method of timing a match.

Now this is what I'd label a concrete well thought out highly innovative new CotG formula. I can definitely see myself using this as an addendum to various match formats....including two of my most favorite 'titanic tests of stamina'...the old Iron Man and Last Man Standing matches. A job well done Stu!

[Stu]

Thanks again Paint for the feedback.

I'll tinker with it some more. One thing I need to figure out is how to address the "Add-1" moves. My thoughts are it would just be one more stamina point on top of the already 3 points most "Add-1" moves would have, since all are Level 3 damage moves. So, it would become a higher impact Level 3 move, worth 4 off of the opponent's stamina.

I'll continue to play around with it. It could be a nice option to have when playing matches.

I appreciate your thoughts kind sir.

[squire]

Highly innovative. I think I am going to have to start using this. Very good stuff!

[squire]

Just thinking about tag matches and recovering Stamina

How's this, if a wrestler tags out and has stamina used up (not fatigue tokens, but stamina) he recovers one stamina "point" for each L3 Offense move his partner does? Very simple, and is pathetic compared to the overall rating system Stu has posted, but wanted to try and kick the thinking gears in to see if anyone thinks this would be a good addition to a stamina system.

[Stu]

Squire:

Many thanks for the kind words and feedback. Don't sell yourself short on the recovering of stamina in tag matches my friend, I've been thinking about that too, and your system would work well! There does need to be a way that a wrestler can recover a bit while he's out on the ring apron and his partner is in the ring. This would accomodate for that, while not completely erasing his stamina used up.

Nice work, and many thanks for the feedback!

-Stu

[Stu]

I do want to add that this system seems to be working fairly well, for me at least. At first, I wondered if this was taking a wonderfully designed game and just making it that much more complex. And, it does take a little getting used to, but it provides that extra element that I think was missing, namely a fatigue/stamina modality. Don't get me wrong, I've always marveled at Tom's design...I'm just taking a masterpiece and tweaking it ever so slightly.

Hope those who try it enjoy it. Thanks again.

-Stu

[LWPD]

squire said:

Just thinking about tag matches and recovering Stamina

How's this, if a wrestler tags out and has stamina used up (not fatigue tokens, but stamina) he recovers one stamina "point" for each L3 Offense move his partner does? Very simple, and is pathetic compared to the overall rating system Stu has posted, but wanted to try and kick the thinking gears in to see if anyone thinks this would be a good addition to a stamina system.

Squire

With regards to fatigue factors and other elements of CotG tag wrestling you may find the discussion and chart listings that took place on this old thread useful:

-Various Tag Team Rules

RECOVERING FATIGUE

-Whenever a tag team partner is on the apron waiting to be tagged in, he may recover any added fatigue PIN tokens on him. Each time there's an unsuccessful PIN attempt on his partner (in which one token is added to his PIN, even if a successful Pin Save is made), 1 fatigue token may be subtracted from the outside wrestler's PIN Rating until his original PIN Rating is reached.

The inactive partner on the apron steadily recovering fatigue concept has merit...yet it's also important to moderate it for excesses. It can be helpful to draw a line of demarcation (setting a finite recoverable pin rating number or in Stu's case stamina number) beyond which recuperation can't take place. A sort of 'hitting the wall' element that represents being pushed past the point of physical/mental exhaustion.

LWPD (I use a max of two possible fatigue recoveries per tag wrestler per match...combined with a 'hitting the wall' rule of no recovery once a pin rating of 8 or above is reached...and the Dead Man's Tag Rule once a PR of 12 is hit outright...YMMV)

[Stu]

I've got one additional tweak, but think I've pretty much got the formula for determining a wrestler's stamina rating down pat now.

You'll notice I have points subtracted for big guys, as they tend to gas earlier. But, having run several matches today, think the opposite holds true, that the smaller guys should get points added.

So, here are the final (ha!) weight calculations I'm proposing for determining stamina:

-Wrestlers over 300 pounds: Subtract 6 points
-Wrestlers 260-299 pounds: Subtract 3 points
-Wrestlers 220-259: Add 3 points
-Wrestlers under 220 pounds: Add 6 points

This calculation for weight, which is a definite factor in endurance, or lack there of, has really made this work for me. I can also vouch after running several matches using this method it has enhanced the overall game play for me, as I truly "feel" the impact of each move by continuing to deduct points, move by move, off stamina.

Thanks for all the feedback, I've had a lot of fun working on this.

[Wad]

stubucco said:

This calculation for weight, which is a definite factor in endurance, or lack there of, has really made this work for me. I can also vouch after running several matches using this method it has enhanced the overall game play for me, as I truly "feel" the impact of each move by continuing to deduct points, move by move, off stamina.

How does stamina affect "lunch wagon" wrestlers like Cycle Hog and Dark Star Creature? They are pretty strong defensively. Would stamina cancel out their defense?

[Wad]

Stu, what about the stamina effect on a wrestler's offense? If a wrestler is gassed, the offensive potency would be less effective.

[Stu]

A good question Wad, and one for which unfortunately I don't have an answer yet. Yes, you are absolutely correct, the offense should be impacted as well. I currently don't know how this would be done though. My way of initally doing this was to have all chart ratings decrease for every 4 tokens worth of fatigue suffered, but that still doesn't account for the fatigued wrestler's offense.

So, my answer now is...I don't know. But, it does bear some more investigation.

[smathis]

[originally posted also on the Deuce]

Hi all:
I've finally used the Stamina system that Stu and I've put together on enough cards to feel confident that most of the kinks have been ironed out. I've typed up a 2-3 page document that details all the ins and outs of the system. If anyone is interested, PM me an email address and I'll send you the PDF.

The system is very simple. I've found 20-sided dice are the easiest way to keep track of Stamina. in this system.

The bulk of the document is explaining how special cases like breaking out of a pin, finishers and "add 1" moves come into play with the system. Still, it's a pretty rules light mod even with a handful of extra cases.

The really cool thing I've found the system is good for is "working" a match. For example, I'm in the DWA. If someone bids one of my top contenders out from under me and that contender has a shot at my regional title I don't want my champion to lose the belt to him. In traditional LOW, it's anything goes (pretty much) and all things being equal I may be putting the belt on a guy that has one foot out the door.

But with the Stamina system (which I have been using for my DWA and LWF cards for over a month now) I can simply give the champion 20 stamina and the challenger 15. That gives me a competitive match that's weighted in the champion's favor. What I would want in the above situation.

Or I could give the champion 20 stamina and the challenger 10 if I wanted a squash.

Also, I've found Stamina to be a better method of reflecting injury in the game. Someone wrestling injured may have 50-75% of their normal Stamina. It saves me from having to remember if they have a Deathjump of C or a +1 or a +2 to their Pin (as per the rules in Ringside Companion).

All in all, I have to give a hat's off to Stu for starting out this discussion. With Strategy Cards and now the Stamina system, I really feel I have captured the best of LOW and WF in one experience. I'm having a heck of a time.

[LWPD]

smathis said:

With Strategy Cards and now the Stamina system, I really feel I have captured the best of LOW and WF in one experience. I'm having a heck of a time.

Both concepts sound really intriguing. I hope you'll consider archiving the text of your material in a separate thread...that would ultimately reach and benefit the largest number of people.

[smathis]

I couldn't do the Strategy Cards but I could post the text for the rules for using them. The Stamina rules would be no problem to post. I'll see what I can do.