Sell me Senshi and Austin Starr ?

[Eliath]

Oh I watch ROH and I understand what you are saying...what I am saying is that you can see a quality match in the WWE...they are just fewer and farther between because you have to wade through all the promos and skits that weigh down the show..

ROH is pure wrestling...they let the matches entertain and build angles instead of filling the time with skits and promos..the ones they do are shorter and more to the point..

This is what turns people off to the WWE is they want to see wrestling..but what they get is entertainment...if you think about it. what pulled NWA/WCW under is when they decided to be like the WWE and failed...before they decided that it was driven more like ROH is today..by the matches instead of the promos/skits

[Hegemony]

And I am not saying you are unable to see a quality match in WWE. With guys like Benoit, Finlay, Regal, Michaels, etc. it would be foolish to say something like that. But like you said, the WWE isn't primarily focused on producing the best matches possible, and if they were guys like Finlay would not have a midget for comedy value in their matches.

I point to ROH as an alternative, and one that many don't see due to not having a TV deal. Frankly Eliath, your two posts could not have more opposed tones, which is why I got confused.

And today is the company's fifth birthday. It is their "special day" and consider my praise for them a birthday present from Hegemony.

[Eliath]

The difference in the two posts is this:

You are comparing apples (ROH) to watermelons (WWE) If you like apples...great...But the two are just not the same. When ROH gets the exposure of the WWE and is STILL putting the focus on match quality THEN and ONLY THEN can you say that ROH is better than the WWE..

Until that time...as you said...ROH is an alternative. You just cannot compare apples to watermelons.

[Eliath]

Just say that ROH is great at producing quality matches...and you will get no argument (other than they are a bunch of 150 lb. skinny guys who...blah blah blah)

But at the same time you must also say that the WWE is great at producing wrestling entertainment. You cannot argue with their weekly RAW ratings. You cannot argue their PPV buys. You cannot argue their live show attendance.

[Hegemony]

Both are wrestling companies. Therefore the comparison is entirely valid. And I am not arguing business models but aesthetics. Aesthetically speaking, ROH provides a product that I find more appealing, but to say that this is not comparable is absurd.

[Hegemony]

eliath said:

Just say that ROH is great at producing quality matches...and you will get no argument (other than they are a bunch of 150 lb. skinny guys who...blah blah blah)

But at the same time you must also say that the WWE is great at producing wrestling entertainment. You cannot argue with their weekly RAW ratings. You cannot argue their PPV buys. You cannot argue their live show attendance.

And to be honest the ratings mean nothing to the company in terms of profits and their PPV buys have been in a downturn for years. These are very real concerns the company is facing that you seem to be implying are wonderful for WWE and therefore WWE is the only wrestling product that matters. I am simply disagreeing with you.

[Eliath]

I am not saying that the WWE is the only product that matters. In fact I feel just the opposite. I am however saying that you cannot compare the ROH to the WWE. Thats all I'm saying. They aren't the same product. I am like you in that I like to watch wrestling matches.

Originally it was me disagreeing with you on your view of the WWE. The facts that I made in my last post are simple and to the point. When ROH sells out 40K seats then more people would notice. You can tell me that ratings mean nothing, and PPV buys mean nothing and you can even tell me that profit means nothing..but I own my own business...I can tell you that in the eyes of the WWE & ROH..those things mean EVERYTHING.

[swarm]

I do like ROH for what it is but that isn't the point. You said the WWE was filled with racial stereo-types and said Umaga is a racial stereo-type and you make it sound like this horrible horrible thing...

then somehow as always the discussion turns into you trying to promote ROH as God's gift to wrestling fans which if that's how you feel that's fine...

but I have a huge problem with the stereo-typing stuff...Ringsyde used to always play this card all the time...Shelton Benjamin's Mama...The Godfather...etc...

and now you with Umaga...

and what I say to that is I don't see Umaga complaining why should you?

You're not even Samoan! You're white. If Umaga doesn't care making millions of dollars as a Samoan Savage, and he's really Samoan, and you're white, how does that work?

At least Ringside was a black man so at least I could see where his heart was at.

But I don't get you having a problem with a Samoan Savage heel character since, at least as far as I know from being friends with you and meeting you at GCON, you are not of Samoan decent.

So I don't get it.

[jester]

swarm said:

I do like ROH for what it is but that isn't the point.

So I don't get it.

What it is, is probably the best wrestling I've ever seen in over 27 years of watching wrestling.
I'm sorry but they have matches in their history the WWE can NEVER touch. The guys that have gone through there and are still there are.................UNBELIEVABLE. Samoa Joe (regardless what you say Swarm or anyone els, the guy is fantastic)(if he wasn't the WWE would have never brought in an unbeatable Samoan), Bryan Danielson, C. M. Punk, Homicide, Austin Aries, Nigel McGennis, The Fallen Angel Christopher Daniels and the list goes on and on of these unheard of nobodies except the ones that jump to WWE or TNA that are great, great wrestlers.
They do have their little high fliers but to say their all 150 lb. kids on trampolines is wrong.
I know the company line, "it's not on tv" and you're right, but some things worth while and worth looking for.
Dude give it a chance and rent some sometime and if you can still look at the WWE and call it good pro wrestling then somethings wrong or..........it's just your opinion and this is mine.

[swarm]

jester said:

swarm said:

I do like ROH for what it is but that isn't the point.

So I don't get it.

. Samoa Joe (regardless what you say Swarm or anyone els, the guy is fantastic)(if he wasn't the WWE would have never brought in an unbeatable Samoan)

wtfaryta?

[jester]

Nothing......................... nothing forget it, wtfe dude

[Hegemony]

For the record guys, this thread was about Senshi and Starr and I was pointing the previous posters to a venue where they could really be "sold" on their worth. Swarm was the first person that made this about WWE, and I simply responded that in WWE the qualities that makes these particular wrestlers great would probably not be featured. If you look at my original post it had nothing to do with WWE or Umaga.

As far as my opinions of WWE are concerned, I do like parts of what they do and for better or worse, theirs is the company that can provide its talent with the best living and is the most visible example of pro wrestling in the country. But other companies produce wrestling as well, and all comparisons are valid when dealing with varying presentations of a genre we all love. ROH provides a product that is more akin to my own tastes, but there are also aspects of WWE and even TNA that are good and worth debating. That is part of the fun, fans of this great game debating their opinions over which real life fed most fits their subjective criteria over which presentation of pro wrestling is the best.

This is definitely not the thread to debate WWE's characters being racially insensitive, nor was it last night in the other thread, and for that I apologize. I should have made a separate thread to discuss my feelings on these matters. Perhaps we will continue that conversation in a thread later tonight or tomorrow.

Anyway, peace to my fellow posters, and remember that if you want to be sold on Senshi or Starr that perhaps TNA is not the best venue to get a sense of their talents.

[swarm]

I like Senshi and was interested in Austin Aries when he was the guy to finally end Samoa Joe's ROH Title reign but I can't get into him in TNA at all. I was very disappointed in him as he is just another small guy no big deal.

[Knapik]

swarm said:

I like Senshi and was interested in Austin Aries when he was the guy to finally end Samoa Joe's ROH Title reign but I can't get into him in TNA at all. I was very disappointed in him as he is just another small guy no big deal.

I stopped watching TNA a while back, but Austin ARIES is one of the finest professional wrestlers in the world right now. I've seen over 20 matches of his and have never seen a boring one. He's always on.

I don't understand the fixation with everyone needing to be big. Just as in mixed martial arts or boxing, often the lighter competitors put on the best show... and Aries proves in every ROH match (again I havent seen much of his TNA stuff, so I cant say) that cruiser pro wrestlers put on some of the best matches with their fast pace and superior athleticism.Aries in particular has tremendous ring psychology skills and puts together a great match.

[Mr. Jimmyface]

"How much for da little wrestler?"

"What!?"

"Your little wrestlers. I want to buy your Senshi, your Austin Starr. Sell dem to me! Sell me your wrestlers!"

"Maitre D?!? Maitre D?!?"

[smathis]

Back to topic.

This might help explain the Austin Starr gimmick.

Daniel Solwold came up with the name Austin Aries when he began wrestling professionally because his favorite wrestler growing up was "AUSTIN Idol" and Daniel's zodiac sign was Aries.

The Austin Starr gimmick is a total nod to Austin Idol, right down to the way AA dresses, enters and behaves in the ring. Anyone familiar with Idol's work in the '80s must surely see the resemblance.

So, I don't mind the Austin Starr thing so much because I recognize it for the homage that it is.

I admit that I don't resonate with the Senshi gimmick. I preferred him when he was named Low Ki but, even then, I didn't get the gimmick at all.

But maybe I can help with understanding the Austin Starr thing.