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Post by Joe on Apr 4, 2006 23:19:07 GMT -5
I was reading the latest issue of Pro Wrestling Illustrated , which features Samoa Joe on the cover, and features a story on him in which both Dave Meltzer (Wrestling Observer) and Wade Keller (Pro Wrestling Torch) are interviewed. I know PWI has a history of kayfabe articles, but this story seems pretty legit.
In the feature, Keller mentions that readers of the Torch voted, by a wide margin, Joe number one in its "Readers' Draft." By Keller's own definition, the reader is voting based on which active wrestler he or she would choose to build a promotion around.
After thinking about the concept, which is very familiar to almost any sports fan, I looked at the top 10 vote-getters. They were, in order: Joe, AJ Styles, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, Shelton Benjamin, Christopher Daniels, Triple H, Edge and Christian Cage.
I have watched Samoa Joe even before his debut in TNA, and agree that he is very impressive. He hearkens back to the days of Harley Race; guys who may not be traffic-stoppers, but who look like they could legitimately kick the hell out of anyone in the building. Joe is a very stiff performer, agile for his size and has shown he can put on good matches with a variety of opponents. Whether he can carry a weaker opponent has yet to be determined, but he has shown a lot of tools.
That said, it is amazing the mindset of fans who would compile a list like this. If the idea of a wrestling promotion, why would the top two vote-getters be people who would be very hard to build a promotion around? Joe would be hard to build around because of his look and style. Styles, on the other hand, is wildly exciting, but is not much bigger than most referees and has about as much personality as one.
Follow that up with two guys who, regardless of how good they may be, are clearly on the backsides of their respective careers in Benoit and Michaels, and one who is conceivably a minor injury away from being permanently sidelined in Angle, and the top ten is half over before a legitimate franchise guy is taken (Shelton Benjamin).
It is things like this that make me wonder how out of touch most "smart" fans, who by Keller's own admission are the target audience of PW Torch, must be.
In addition, I would like to know who others would choose as their number one draft pick if they were starting a wrestling promotion.
If were building a fed from scratch, I would start with Triple H. For one, he is the most complete performer in wrestling. Secondly, his name recognition would bring in fans. Third, and perhaps most important, of all the legitimate candidates, he is the closest to being in his prime while still being on top of his game.
John Cena would be a not-so close second. AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels, by the way, would also warrant consideration, but both men's smallish statures, in addition to Styles' horrible mic skills, would relegate both men to lower draft status.
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Post by tenzan on Apr 4, 2006 23:52:37 GMT -5
I'd go for Triple H too because he's in his prime, he's a mainstream recognizeable talent, he's good ont he mic, and he's got the look. Samoa Joe is a lot of fun to watch in the ring, but he doesn't have the look or the name recognition of most WWE guys. I'm not sure about his personality or mic skills though.
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Post by Knapik on Apr 5, 2006 1:00:42 GMT -5
His mic skills are phenomenal, Chang. Which is more than can be said for the #2 pick haha.
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Post by tenzan on Apr 5, 2006 1:20:08 GMT -5
Yah no kidding -- I used to think Benoit was boring, but Styles could teach Lance Storm about having less of a personality.
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Post by Knapik on Apr 5, 2006 1:36:05 GMT -5
Yeah but that being said I like those three guys, Styles especially... just give the dude some mic lessons or keep him away haha
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Post by offspring515 on Apr 5, 2006 1:38:33 GMT -5
I don't know about any of the guys on the list...the hard part is that if you're picking just one you want the whole package...and I don't know if any of those guys give it to you.
If he was available to be picked, I'd probably go with the Rock. He gives you mainstream noteriety, great mic work, and his matches, while not technical masterpieces, are very intense, fun, and usually quite good.
But the downside with him would be that even if he DID consider coming back to wrestling (and having my sorry behind build a fed for him) he'd be called back to acting as soon as a big part came along.
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Post by GalactiKing on Apr 5, 2006 9:06:56 GMT -5
Yeah, much as I can get irritated with Trips he really is the complete package. Moreso than Joe, probably even more than Cage(though he's probably the best in TNA and he's better than most of the WWE0
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Post by gatekeeper on Apr 5, 2006 9:20:34 GMT -5
I'd say HHH then Angle as #2. Angle on the mic can be hilarious but also plays the heel very well too. Plus, his in ring skills are virtually unmatched.
Edge, Benjamin, Styles would have to be in the next tier.
I don't see Samoa Joe as a guy you could build around. At leat, not in a BIG time wrestling company. (not taking a shot here, but think of WCW in it's heyday or even AWA, they wouldn't build around this guy)
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Post by gamtime247 on Apr 5, 2006 9:34:00 GMT -5
I'd say HHH then Angle as #2. Angle on the mic can be hilarious but also plays the heel very well too. Plus, his in ring skills are virtually unmatched. Edge, Benjamin, Styles would have to be in the next tier. I don't see Samoa Joe as a guy you could build around. At leat, not in a BIG time wrestling company. (not taking a shot here, but think of WCW in it's heyday or even AWA, they wouldn't build around this guy) I agree with this post almost word for word. I think I would have Edge a little above Benjamin and Styles though and a tad behind HHH and Angle. I never was a huge Edge fan but I can't say enough good things about him over the past year. He lacks a little of the athletisicm these guys have but is far better on the mic than both Styles and Benjamin, and he's shown he can run with the ball for a while if its handed to him. I'd have him there with Cena on that second tier. Love Cena or hate Cena, he pushes merchandise and people feel passionately about him regardless of what side of the fence they are on. |
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Post by LWPD on Apr 5, 2006 10:33:16 GMT -5
It's akin to discussing a football franchise with a person who completely blanks out concepts like salary caps, trade deadlines and arbitration issues when discussing the building of their local team. Given any topic if the thinking stops at 'I watch/I like/so this should happen' while evading other real world factors relevant to making an evaluation then it's really not much of an intelligent view point...nor will you get much of a productive conversation that's worth the time to engage in.
Like Watching Paint Dry (given the Top 10 from the list Joe's sited the most attractive picks contain solid but beaten down WWE performers in their mid to late 30's who suffer from fused necks, torn quads and a plethora of other injuries...gun to the head I'd sign AJ Styles...not to 'build around'...but I think with his combo of youth, athleticism and stellar work ethic he has the most realistic upside and could be mid/possibly even semi main event asset similar to a young HBK _ONLY IF_ Vince was doing the marketing)
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 5, 2006 11:08:10 GMT -5
Nice discussion. I wouldn't cal Shelton a franchise guy, though. I absolutely love everything about his ring work. But his promos are rough, to say the least.
If I had to doa franchis list it would be Kurt Angle, Triple H, Chris Daniels, Randy Orton, and Brock Lesnar.
Kurt's got a history of injury problems, Trips is on the wrong side of his prime, CD is a little small, ad Orton and Lesnar both have professionalism issues, but they are all uniquely talented, they all can put on great matches (Orton has improved and I've seen CD work with heavyweights), they can all work as both heels and faces, and they can all work a mic (Lesnar is more than passable. He was pretty great his last two programs in WWE with Eddie and Goldberg).
For the record, if you could pick inactive wrestlers, Rock and Jericho would be #1 and #2 respectively.
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Post by LWPD on Apr 5, 2006 11:37:30 GMT -5
If starting a promotion from scratch The Rock would be my ideal pick (even with his enormous price tag). He has a mix of raw talent, charisma, youth, good health and mainstream cred that wouldn't really come from anyone else at this stage. He's also a draw...and individual draws in pro wres with mainstream appeal and recognition are very hard to come by. If you are going to dump your money in and build a promotion around one guy then I'd take a shot and roll the dice with The Rock.
Jericho is a great role player who's still fairly young and seems to have escaped any major injuries. It would come down to his price tag given that he seems to want a relaxed schedule. He's a jack of all trades type and could be an MVP (but never a massive draw).
Cena and Edge both have upside and charimsa...but I question how much it would be worth paying them sans the WWE promotional machine doing the marketing. Could a young infomercial model based promotion like TNA really justify paying Cena $1 million plus or Edge (who's injury prone) just under that given the way their business is structured? It would be bleeding more red ink with those guys right off the bat and I seriously question if they have the infrastructure in place to reap a return anywhere near the level WWE has. Everything always seems easier from a safe distance.
Like Watching Paint Dry (the same can be true of guys like Hunter and Angle...who are no doubt assets with-in the WWE structure...but are questionable picks given their age, price tags and injury history when the challenge would be to utilize them outside of Vince's system)
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Post by floydthebarber on Apr 5, 2006 15:35:01 GMT -5
Given the top 10 names listed, its a pretty tough call because there are two sides to every wrestler. If Benoit was 5 years younger, I'd pick him in a heartbeat. But taking into consideration age, salary, injuries, ability and marketability...I'd probably agree with the poll and pick Joe. Shelton Benjamin could be a 'franchise guy' if he ever gets confident on the mike...while the same could be said about A.J. as well. Angle is fantastic...but is nearly wrecked physically, while HHH would be a safe pick, but I still think he's a little overrated.
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hawk
Prelim Bum
Posts: 12
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Post by hawk on Apr 7, 2006 18:27:16 GMT -5
Joe is very close to being the perfect heel, and I'll tell you why.
#1: He is not a pretty boy. There is nothing on Joe that will make female fans cheer him. He's overweight, and not overly handsome.
#2: He doesn't try to be cool, or cocky. Joe just MAULS you.
#3: Joe doesn't try for cheers. Even outside of TNA besides a few spots and moments, he just doesn't go for the fan's approval. Even as a quasi face in ROH, he still wrestled like a bastard.
#4: Joe is just big enough that it's believable for him to hurt big wrestlers, and to be a complete monster to small guys.
The only way Joe gets cheered is if you have a laaarge smart gathering. He gets cheered in TNA due to their fanbase never ever changing, and most of them being somewhat educated. Joe got cheered in ROH due to the high ammount of smart fans, and out of sheer respect.
If wrestling hadn't changed to where look is key, Joe would undoubtably be a main eventer anywhere he went due to his skills, look, and personality. Joe can make anyone cheer someone, and give them chances to fool the fans.
Joe's basicly our generation's verison of Vader but probably a better worker. He looks massive, he's legitimate scary, and he legitimately makes it look like he's killing people. That is a heel, joking around on a microphone is not.
As for my top two picks..In America, I'd pick Rock #1, like most said, but I would take Joe #2 if only for the fact that you could elevate anyone he wrestled with 15 minute matches.
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Post by GalactiKing on Apr 7, 2006 20:28:19 GMT -5
I admit Rock(who's still quite young IIRC) would be the best to get. With his movie career destined to be B-movies I wonder if he'll move back to the ring sooner or later.
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Post by thefamoustommyz on Apr 7, 2006 22:46:24 GMT -5
I agree with virtually all of Hawk's points. The first Joe-Styles match I watched, I was reminded of the Sting-Vader feud, and I mean that in a good way.
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Post by floydthebarber on Apr 9, 2006 0:22:39 GMT -5
Some great points there Hawk! The fact that he doesn't try for cheers or to get 'over' makes him a GREAT heel...he just doesn't give a F***. Also, he's the type of heel that another heel like JJJ would look at and NOT want to cross. The 'pretty boy' argument is a very good one too...but for a guy like Orton, it actually works for him, cause he's just so GD full of himself.
Joe is a great heel to 'build up' other faces against...and I hope that is what's happening/going to happen in TNA, cause they've got a gem and it looks like he wants to stick around for a couple more years (though I'm SURE the $$$$ of WWE will eventually get him to jump, but he knows he's better off building his name in TNA than jump to WWE now, cause I'm 100% convinced they wouldn't use him right...or 'someone' would get in his way...)
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Post by swarm on Apr 9, 2006 3:03:11 GMT -5
I really like Samoa Joe, but I'm a "wrestling" fan...
unfortunately, he's not the guy who is ever going to attract the causal fan, thus, as good as he is, he really does nothing for the future of TNA...
sad, but true.
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Post by floydthebarber on Apr 9, 2006 3:09:59 GMT -5
gotta dissagree with you on this one. He's not everyone's cup of tea...and he certainly isn't a top draw by WWE standards...yet...but if you can't recognize the potential in someone like him then there is some sort of bias in your way.
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Post by swarm on Apr 9, 2006 3:21:22 GMT -5
gotta dissagree with you on this one. He's not everyone's cup of tea...and he certainly isn't a top draw by WWE standards...yet...but if you can't recognize the potential in someone like him then there is some sort of bias in your way. oh I do see his potential...for sure. I just don't think he's the guy who is going to add any kind of fans, or fans that TNA or the WWE doesn't already have. he's not a Rock, or Brock, or Goldberg, or Austin... he's more of a Benoit. Real fans will love him, casual fans won't notice him... |
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