Why moves mean nothing anymore

[thefamoustommyz]

Thanks for that, LWPD...I have a friend who is a HUGE mark for Shelley, Aries and Roderick Strong, and I asked him if they were any different out of TNA...because in TNA, they are bland, spot-fest guys...he basically said what you did, which is that out of TNA, they have personalities and sound matches. From my limited experience watching them, however, which is soley TNA, I have been completely underwhelmed by Shelley, Aries, Strong and Joe...

Even Chris Sabin...I have a match between Sabin and Petey Williams from earlier this year in Japan and it blows away anything they have done in TNA once they get past this stupid little choreographed bit in the first few minutes...Petey even hits a running Canadian Destroyer that looks *credible*.

A.J.'s the only X guy that has truly impressed me with his work *in* TNA, because in addition to his X Division spotfests, he gets to show off from time to time in more diverse settings like the Six Sides of Steel with Abyss from Lockdown.

[Wad]

Scott Keith wrote about this problem in a rant about ... ECW. So the problem has existed for quite a while. It's a good comparison.

The problem lies with the wrestlers looking to the fans for match interest. Since fans only reacted to insane spots, and sat on their hands at all other times. The workers didn't know what to do, so they just decided to wrestle to the pop.

[tafkaga]

Do you think with the introduction of the cruiserweight/X-division style to American wrestling that perhaps in the long run it has only served to distract the fans from what professional wrestling is REALLY about? Back in the 80's the wrestling fans were much more tolerant of what was going on in the ring. You put Junkyard Dog up against the One Man Gang, two guys who would be considered AWFUL by today's standards, and the fans in the old days would eat it up. They'd cheer the face and boo the heel, because in those days athleticism was a bonus...but not a requirement. The angles are mainly what mattered. The enjoyment was in the ring psychology, not in the insane spots.

While I can appreciate the athleticism of the cruiserweights, they have definitely changed our standards for an in-ring product, and not all for the better either. As Wad just said, a lot of these guys go out and do what will get the pops. Ring psychology, storytelling, and all of the hype takes a back seat to doing something that will inspire a "holy $hi+" chant. I think that the ECW garbage style and to a lesser extent the introduction of the cruiserweights to WCW is to credit for this.

[hooligans2]

I agree also. Ok, so I am only going to be 30 this year and have only watched wrestling since 1985, but I have also spent a lot of time and money getting old tapes and books about wrestling prior to that. I much prefer the older, slower style of matches that tell a story. Remember when a dropkick, suplex, or powerslam were unique or rare moves? When only a handful of guys used a superplex or a DDT? Now its all a joke. If any of you have ever watched or if you own Beyond the Mat Special Edition on DVD, play the commentary with Foley and Ventura. Jesse Ventura makes a great point: Finishers used to be just that. No one got up from them, or broke out of them if they were submission. That's why they're called finishers. Now you could have Orton do the RKO twice, his opponent will get up, and then probably "steal his move" and do it back. As several of my friends and I have been saying for at least the last 5-10 years, why can't they (WWE, TNA, etc.) put the WRESTLING back into wrestling???

[LWPD]

tafkaga said:

Do you think with the introduction of the cruiserweight/X-division style to American wrestling that perhaps in the long run it has only served to distract the fans from what professional wrestling is REALLY about?

Pro wrestling is REALLY about drawing money with a mix of scripted athleticism and theatrics. The path to getting there is infinitely diverse. If something like the X Division can accomplish that objective then more power to the performers and TNA. Personally I don't see much take in guys shimming across a cable to grab a red X sans performers with enough effective star quality and compelling storylines to sell the content. It's a contrarian creative approach to what works for Vince and everyone else who has come before. Time will tell if it's a success.

How did it come to this? What changed the style on the Indy scene was a combination of things coinciding with the late 1990's pro wrestling boom. If you look at pro wrestling historically, booms tend to be the catalyst for enduring changes in the content.

One factor was Eric Bischoff facing the dilemma of having to fill two (and later three) hours of television for Monday Night Nitro in a head to head setting with WWF/E, The goal at the time (as it is with TNA and it's X Division today) was to differentiate the WCW product from what Vince was running. Bringing in top Lucha talent like Rey Mysterio Jr. and Juventud Guerrera and Psychosis, along with world traveled junior heavyweights such as Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit and Dean Malenko changed what many casual fans were exposed to watching. More importantly it changed the 'ideal' for many of the hardcore 'workrate' fans and those impressionable young kids breaking into the business. One of Eric Bischoff's enduring legacies is that he exposed mainstream pro wrestling fans to different styles of working that most people growing up watching 1980's territorial wrestling weren't use to along with in ring move sets that were heretofore unthinkable.

Paul Heyman and ECW were actually ahead of the curve in terms of getting things started, exposing not only the diverse Lucha and New Japan Junior styles to his audience, but heavily pushing the 'steal the show regardless of card positioning' booking philosophy along with the obligatory 'Holy Sh%t moment' spot work....which led to the now widely observed no selling of 'high end' moves that would traditionally be followed by a finish. These two factors are at the heart of everything you'll find on the Indy scene today, from 'happy clapping' by the audience where reactions are not to personas but 'workrate', right up to the mentality of 'oneupmanship' Hawk cited in his earlier post.

Another strong catalyst for change was economics. The wrestling boom of the late 1990's saw a lot of Northeast 'run once a month' promoters pop up, some of whom I know personally. The standard approach in the past was to book a family friendly show with a few 'name ex-mainstream' stars. The reality of the time was that Indy fans were attracted to the changes in the scene and were hardcores who were more in tune with the style ECW was pushing then Doink the Clown battling Honky Tonk Man. You could reduce your labor costs by pushing a style of wrestling with a generation of young no name risk takers at less cost while appealing more to the base audience at the same time.

Back in 1998 I remember the guys I knew booking smaller young hungry wrestlers who would work for cheap and bust their asz in the ring. Kids like Low Ki, Amazing Red, Xavier and Spanish Announce Table, along with ECW journeymen who spread the trend. The style used the moves of the New Japan Heavyweights and Lucha stuff on Nitro combined with the 'steal the show' pacing and bump taking that made ECW popular. The Jerry Lynn's and Kid Kash's of what was ECW further entrenched this style as they worked on top of the Indy circuit. Elements of garbage wrestling also helped to make up for a lack of in ring proficiency. What worked in New York spread to Philly. What worked in ICW and USA Pro spread to ROH. What worked in ROH became the new 'ideal' for the group of kids watching and others training to become the next 'Indy superstar'. The cycle breeds itself with many an ambitious ticket seller and newbie working in small venues across the country...just rinse, wash, repeat.


Like Watching Paint Dry (who enjoys watching those like Brian Danielson and Samoa Joe who through experience break out of the cycle and with time come to retain all the strengths of the work ethic and innovation of the new style and combine it with a learned perfection of the fundamentals)

[hawk]

I'm not a huge New Japan fan...but I've always had a problem with the whole "Strong Style" thing in the US.

NJPW "made" Strong Style, but it was never about how hard you hit, or how many cool moves you have. NJPW's successful booking philosophy when it works, is about achieving alot, with little. Take Antonio Inoki, he is not even in the top twenty Japanese workers in Puro history, but he made the style based on theatrics. Inoki, in most of his matches, would take a beating, but due to his "BURNING SPIRIT" would refuse to stay down, and would almost always win through his spirit. His match against Vader from the 1996 Tokyo Dome is the most perfect example of this.

The second was Shinya Hashimoto. Dude knew all of like, ten moves, but he made it work through his passion, and style. You watch him regain the IWGP title from Nobuhiko Takada, and the fans litterally screaming in joy, and it hits you. Strong Style isn't a style. It's a way of being.

For some reason, the translation to the US focuses on hard hitting, and often headdroppy moves. I don't get it. Personally, Samoa Joe is not Strong Style. I like the guy, but he's just a regular worker with somewhat of a Shoot Style "candy coating" to his style.

Anyway. I had a long post earlier, but it made no sense...the basic gist I was trying to come to, was it's a variety of factors that have lead us to the place we're at now. From Promotions, to fans, to workers themselves. It's a combination of a whole bunch of things that have brought us to the current place...that is all.

...and re-reading your post LWPD, you mentioned nothing strong style...I have a cold!

[Omen]

Question?
Is that same thinking happening with Tom in writing cards for COTG/LOW?

[tafkaga]

Good post LWPD... I feel like I've been to school.

[Wad]

hooligans2 said:

As several of my friends and I have been saying for at least the last 5-10 years, why can't they (WWE, TNA, etc.) put the WRESTLING back into wrestling???

Because the wrestling companies have to take it upon themselves to educate its fanbase to tell them what is good wrestling.

WWE thinks it has transcended wrestling to the point where "wrestling" is a four-letter word within the organization. The only consideration WWE has is marketability. How much merch and crossover appeal does a wrestler have? The key to success in WWE is to have a catch-phrase that sticks and have a type of body Vince McMahon likes.

TNA is at a position where it's defining its niche. The X Division may seem like a bastardization of wrestling, but then doesn't a Kip James or Monty Brown reflect more on what wrestling should be?

The indies live gate-to-gate. They know they have a short time to hang on to the talent they have, and will try anything to get fans to attend the shows. The breakdown of the territory system means that indies are only a stepping stone for WWE.

Back when you had territories, there were different styles of wrestling. Memphis is different than Minnesota, and there are other sorts of regional flavors that worked in their respective territories.

Nowadays, you have WWE style, and you have everything else. WWE is where every wrestler wishes to be, much like the major leagues in sports. If a wrestler's whole goal is to end up with a job at the top organization, they'll use the indies as a testing ground to prove their drawing power.