Why moves mean nothing anymore

[gwffantrav]

To show how entertaining WWE PPVs are, when we (friends and I) get together, we discuss everything else but the PPVs..lol

We had a discussion on old school matches vs new school matches and why the old ones don't work. A couple of us came to the conclusion that moves just don't mean anything anymore. I just bring this up in the TNA thread because I just finished watching.

Raven was posted TWICE by Diamonds in the Rough, but there was basically no effect. I don't know how familiar you are with this match, but the first time seeing that happen was when Austin Idol and Tommy Rich posted Jerry Lawler. Lawler sold that move for a month. That should be devastating. Same as a move like the piledriver.

BTW, if anyone who watched TNA this week, if I was Zbyszko, there was no way in hell I would let someone like Raven spit blood at me. As someone who has said he's basically been with tons of strippers and former drug addict (although it probably wasn't sharing needles or anything like that...but still)...there's no way in hell I would want his blood on me.

[Boomdoxxx]

The competitors in the business have evolved since the days when Jerry Lawler was in his prime. The game changes over time and so have the moves. The wrestlers today are in better shape and some moves have different affects now. Oh, and another tip, just go with the show. Sometimes its best not to ask too many questions. ;D

[markteaches]

cooman said:

The competitors in the business have evolved since the days when Jerry Lawler was in his prime. The game changes over time and so have the moves. The wrestlers today are in better shape and some moves have different affects now.

Tony Schiavone may have said that same thing during a NITRO in 1997. I can't be sure. Tony is that you?

[Ghost of Swarm]

There are plenty of finishers that still mean plenty in the WWE...

but you are right about them not meaning squat in TNA, where really, nothing means much...

all these crazy moves, and no selling...followed by the scabs of the WWE head-lining...

now that is meaningless...

TNA is such a bad product, I'm willing to bet they will be completely out of business in 5 years, and that is being generous.

now of course, this is my opinion, but a certian little salamander guy on this board will try to tell you all that this post is a personal attack on all of you...

it's not. But TNA does suck.

[Ghost of Swarm]

also...

what the fuck is the point of banning me if I can always find a way around it anyways?

[MikeMcKinney]

Banned? for what............

[Swarm banned not really]

mikemckinney said:

Banned? for what............

you read my GFITG post...card 1066 was dedicated to the recent events involved our wonderful commisioner Chris Ingersol and our new little salamander buddy tafgata...

thanks for the material guys...I've gotten a few e-mails saying it's my best stuff yet.

[Swarm banned not really]

card 1067...

anyways, not that is matters. I'm clearly still here.

[tafkaga]

I agree with you GWFfanTrav. The lack of selling to moves today has resulted in exactly what you've observed... they don't mean much. In the old days it used to be that a piledriver was a devastating move that could potentially ruin your career and definitely hurt a guy bad enough for him to be out of the match. These days a piledriver is just another move, unless it happens to be a guy's finisher, and the victim of it will roll around for 5 seconds and then get up as if nothing happened. Makes no sense.

I compare it to a lot of the martial arts fighting games out there. Take for example the grand daddy of them all, Street Fighter II... where two guys kick and punch the hell out of each other until one guy's energy bar is depleted. Until the bar is depleted there's no way of even showing that the guys are really hurt. Wrestling has become a lot like those games, where both guys have an energy bar and until it runs out for one guy they're going to keep pounding each other with fancy moves with very little selling.

[Omen]

Wow ! I wonder who has the joystick's to this game. I want to hit the reset button. ;D

Just like my "Showdown: Legends of Wrestling" game.

bty Now I know why Eddie Guerrerro was on the game.

[pikemojo]

That is a good way of putting it tafkaga. It also is very much like the Smackdown games for PS2. It really pisses me off when I am doing a cage match and I hit my finisher on someone 2 times to try to keep them down so I can climb out and he gets up. But that is kinda like how wrestling has become. Who knows, if UFC keeps gaining in popularity we could see wrestling get more real like in Japan. Japanese wrestling kinda tried to duplicate realistic fighting for a while because it had become more popular than wrestling over there. UFC could change things.
On a side note, I was wondering where Swarm had gone. I had not seen him on here in a while.

[LWPD]

gwffantrav said:

Raven was posted TWICE by Diamonds in the Rough, but there was basically no effect. I don't know how familiar you are with this match, but the first time seeing that happen was when Austin Idol and Tommy Rich posted Jerry Lawler. Lawler sold that move for a month. That should be devastating. Same as a move like the piledriver.

Much of the difference in the 'effects of moves' over time has to do with the creative context of the promotions involved. The Austin/Rich destruction of Jerry Lawler incident was one of my favorite Memphis booking angles. I remember the Apter mags reporting how the eagle split posting had ruptured Lawler's testicles! The angle set up a multi month revenge program that included the introduction of a 'mystery partner', heads being shaved, a repeat 'devastation' spot with the eagle split on the heels, and then the eventual break up of the antagonists who started the whole process. The spot was a major catalyst for months of profitable entertaining booking. It helped that Lawler was booking himself into a staggered money scenario.

In contrast there is no house show circuit to build toward in TNA. so there is no time condensed gate to draw. The weekly television show itself is open free to the public, so getting people to emotionally invest enough in the wrestlers to pay to show up isn't even an issue. Raven and the others filled time with 'something for television' and the eagle split, will lead to nothing more than more garbage spots for the continuance of this second tier angle.

I imagine the 'payoff' will see Raven fight on the next monthly PPV over the Zbyzsko 'release form' prop that I doubt anyone really cares about. It's certainly a poor substitute for the ruptured testicles, shaved head and the devastating and humiliating stretcher job that resulted from the Lawler eagle split posting nearly two decades ago.



Like Watching Paint Dry (who finds it ironic that Jeff Jarrett grew up watching this good stuff first hand but doesn't book himself similarly)

[hawk]

The problem with moves is, in my opinion, a direct relation to the lack of a circuit system for wrestling. Indy Promotions have no formula, and no format for wrestlers to learn, and improve. What ends up happening, is wrestlers of the same skill level end up trying to play one upmanship instead of improving, and invent, or devalue moves that mean something. Take for instance the Tiger Driver '91, thee most lethal move in Japan next to the Burning Hammer...it's been used as a setup move to a FLYING MOVE. Same with the Burning Hammer, one of the Brisco's use a freaking Wrist Clutch Variation...why? Cause they can.

That trickles down into TNA and to a lesser extent, WWE. WWE has their own system, and they can pick and choose what is done, and what is not. Now their BOOKING of spots is idiotic, but they've still retained some move meaning. TNA on the other hand feeds off the indies, and if they said "Hey guys, could you like...not do so many high spots and make them mean more?" they'd have their fanbase go livid at "holding down wrestlers potentials".

There's more to wrestling then just a bunch of spots, and we're RAPIDLY losing that. With no Territory system (Which usually had people of distinct ranges within. Old timers teach newbies the ropes in the ring, and backstage, and people generally improving at all levels), we're reaching a situation where it's not how good you are as a wrestler, but how many high spots, headdrops, and fast paced action you can achieve in one match.

[markteaches]

Spot on, Hawk! That is probably the best reasoning on the subject that I have read. I couldn't agree more.

The saddest part to the "TNA style" is that this style is harming the wrestlers themselves at an alarming rate. Injuries are the norm not a freak occourance and that is bad. These are human beings. They're not invincible. Pain medication was not a common addiction just a few years ago. That says volumes to me.

[tafkaga]

I agree with Hawk totally.

Wrestling is changing, and there's no way to stop it. As much as we may yearn for the old days, it's going to change. It's been changing constantly over the last century. Lou Thesz laughed at Hulk Hogan, and now Hulk Hogan can laugh at guys in TNA. With each evolution (de-evolution), the fan base changes. With each change of fan bases, there are new expectations for the in-ring product. I'm doubtful that anyone on this board would find a Lou Thesz match entertaining, and I doubt that a lot of the fans in the Impact Zone would enjoy a Bret Hart match. They seem to be into the fast & furious indy style spotfests, which to me is not wrestling.

[thefamoustommyz]

I'm actually glad that the company I'm training with has such an old school approach to things...I'm not saying we're busting out ***** classics every show, but we're putting together wrestling matches and not gimmicked up spotfests.

In fact, my training has made me dislike most of the X Division entirely for that reason.

Tommy

[gwffantrav]

Good deal Tommy. Glad to hear that. Everyone raves about how great Paul Heyman is in OVW, but give me Jim Cornette anyday (without the temper).

Heyman is a good storyteller, but definitely doesn't teach the group to put on a wrestling match.

Eventually, everything old..is new again

[thefamoustommyz]

One of my instructors just gave me the Secrets of the Ring with Jim Cornette DVD which is my new bible as far as promos and psychology goes...Old School is alive again at Tornado Pro Wrestling...=)

[LWPD]

Hawk many of the points you make are valid regarding the road blocks (both industrial and self inflicted) young talent faces in terms of developing. Full time work isn't nearly as readily available as it once was, and young journey men are more likely to be found in an Indy locker room than knowledgeable vets. Yet the TNA problem is a different issue entirely.

I've seen well worked psychologically sound matches from most of the X Division kids OUTSIDE of TNA and it's X Division style. Alex Shelly has International experience and knows how to work submissions and transitional mat work in a way that would make Billy Robinson proud. Austin Aires knows how to play a perfect face in peril and expertly time his comebacks. AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels both know how to methodically pace themselves and tell a solid story with immense athleticism sans working a spot fest. Samoa Joe may just be the best young working big man in the world.

TNA has signed the Creme de la Creme of the Indy world, but one really wouldn't know it due to how they are told to perform. The reason fans don't see it isn't because they 'don't know how to work' or 'self indulgent focus on oneupmanship' or some systemic problem with the industry as a whole, it's simply because they are being told to emphasize eye catching high spots at an accelerated pace. Watch these same guys work in ROH, Pro Wrestling Gorilla, Battle Arts, Zero One and other places and you'll see a whole other side to the performances of those who make up the X Division.


Like Watching Paint Dry (who imagines TNA will continue to emphasize it's X Division as 'something WWE doesn't do' without ever comprehending the logic behind 'why' they don't do it)


"Innovative, Cutting-Edge, Death Defying, Outrageous any of these words still can't adequately describe the TNA X Division."

-Best Of The X Division Vol.1 Ad Copy

[hawk]

I've seen a few ROH shows, and I used to be highly into the indy wrestling...but not as much anymore.

I'm not trying to say the Indies are evil, but I see this as a pretty strong reasoning. It even happens in Japan, but it's 100% in the indy promotions, where the same thing takes place. The difference over there, is many of the promotions internalize their hiring, and training, so they raise their own wrestlers to fit what they see them as doing. NOAH & NJPW for instance rarely hire anyone that hasn't come from their systems, and as such, they know what they can do, and what they will do. AJPW used to be the same aswell, meaning many moves (Until AJPW went insane 1998-onwards) were protected.

I don't deny that TNA isn't telling them to go out and spotmonkey, but at the same time, if say...AJ/Sabin had done armwork for most of the match, you'd have people screaming that TNA is forcing the wrestlers to down-work, and would take incredible backlash. It's kind of a cycle for TNA. If they don't go all out whenever they can, then people claim their boring, or keeping talent wrapped up.