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[Darth Turkish]

Joe said:

However, does a submission finisher's rating get added each time it is applied?

I always add the rating so he is not impossible to submit, only extremely tough to do it on.

[Trent Lawless]

Feel free to do whatever you want with Pendekar. It'll be a moot point in less than a month! The idea behind his character was that he may not be the toughest stats-wise, but his one strength was that it was extremely difficult to get him to give up. It was never written that he can never submit. I just didn't want him to be able to submit on just a level 3 move. It had to be a finisher. So if Talisman applies his RENUNCIATION (+2), Pendekar could tap out on a roll of 2 or 3. But he won't tap out to a sharpshooter-3. All this as opposed to the Amazing Mann, who never submits and just gets 1 added to his PIN on all submission moves.

Again, by GalactiCon and after, this won't matter. He's gotten more of a grounding in the wrestling way of things, and while he's improved in some areas, he's weakened in that one. I really like the guy and hope I can do more with him in the years to come.

[Old Schooler]

So Lars Toxic, should I register as "James Bond 007" 'cause I can see that Lars is clearly your real name. It's a discussion board and as much as you might not like it, I can post however I want and my opinions count just as much as yours.

We all know that the 24 wrestlers were added onto by Tom obviously to develop the game even more. But the point we're making here people is that 24 guys (or roughly there about) are plenty to have right now and then we know there will be more.

The points you make about Endgame being stacked - yes he is -- HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Tom wrote him as, basically, the best wrestler in the galaxy. And Bloodline, he's in the Omega family isn't he?? Yeah, I guess with people in your family like Omega, Star Warrior and Alpha Force, he should probably be a midcarder, I guess you're right.

[Joe]

Old Schooler-

I wasn't being critical of Tom for stacking Endgame's card or Bloodline's card. I do not think that Bloodline is supposed to be a mid-carder, but as I also stated, there are plenty of other cards that are stacked in comparison to years past. Epoch has 6 counters and two ADD 1 moves. Kill Prey has a finisher that can top out at (+5). Valour has a finisher that can reach who knows what rating. Disaster has a (+4), an ADD 1, 1 down, and a (-4) and a (-1). There is a reason that all these guys are like they are, the only point I was making is that if you are going to be critical of Mark's statistic-stacking, you have to be fair in your criticisms.

[Old Schooler]

I am being fair, Tom has a reason for making guys like that. He gives them a sweet backstory like being a Gladiator of Aethra, or in the Omega family. It seems that the CPC guys have no real justification for having those stats, itt seems as only to try and "catch" the GWF guys. Though that will never happen. Tom has even stated that the GWF is the premier wrestling fed in the galaxy. Notice how Mark writes this "interpromotional" angle in his book, yet Tom makes no mention of it. CPC is what it is the minor leagues. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. Case and point, how many guys from the CPC have jumped to the GWF -- none. Muss and Bomb were Tom's guys to begin with. I am being totally fair in my assessment.

EDIT by Chris: Typo correction, more or less by request.

[Mr. Jimmyface]

Old Schooler, please please please register as a full time forum member! Seriously, if you want your opinion to have the weight, a full time stay in the forum would solidify you better.

Ok, maybe not better, but you'd establish a legit rep that way... trust me!

I will agree with you in theory on one point - the GWF is currently the big league as far as the casual fan is concerned. But since the inception of the CPC, they have started to develop an incredible roster of talent. The CPC right now is what ECW was circa 1996. You had some old WWF guys, but young emerging talent and wrestlers who didn't fit in anywhere else got their shots, too.

OS, I'll assume you have a job somewhere - are you telling me that there isn't competion in the field you work in? Are you telling me that there aren't companies out there offering the same, or even better goods and services that you provide? Are you telling me that there aren't other workers out there on your talent level, or perhaps even better than you?

If you said "no" to any of that, you have no concept of life in America. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE BETTER THAN YOU OUT THERE. The trick is to stay sharp, on top of your game, and to give it everything you got, day in and day out. The GWF guys know that. The CPC guys know that. That is why you have guys with great stats in the game. It is a brutally competitive world in the COTG, and those stats help point out who is the best, even on the most basic levels.

I am proud of Mark for the characters he has created, and I am proud of Tom for not becoming Vince McMahon and buying out all of Mark's cool creations. If the "real" wrestling federations had the same relations those two have, the current product wouldn't be so stale. And as a gamer, having two sets of diverse wrestlers written from two different perspectives keep me interested in the same game for over 15 years!!! And NO ONE can argue that!!!

[Like Watching Paint Dry]

LarsToxik said:

Old Schooler, please please please register as a full time forum member! Seriously, if you want your opinion to have the weight, a full time stay in the forum would solidify you better.

Couldn't disagree with this more. There is no such thing as a 'full time' forum member on this board. Just people who share a common interest and OCCASIONALLY share thoughts on the COTG hobby.
Many of the better ideas and more creative threads come from the 'guests' who don't register 'official' identities. It helps to make the board focused more on quality ideas, not on cliques and the ego stroking of 'established' posters, which tends to turn off the silent majority of lurkers who lose interest & seldom post .

We need more thought provoking threads and posts...not internet celebrities!

I don't necessarily agree with Old Schooler, but I'd like to thank him for breaking the fan boy markish monotony that's particularly common on the CPC forum. I don't know if it's the fact that few on the board actually play CPC (due to needing GWF sets most haven't and will never reach) but it's really fallen into a formulaic rut. The same small group of posters bring up the same mundane topics over & over again, making it of very little appeal to potential newbies. The motivation to recruit new players to join in on the CPC bandwagon isn't aided by the 'exciting as watching paint dry' atmosphere of the CPC forum.

With no challenge of ideas or debates on creative direction, there becomes little reason for established players to 'get excited' about past CPC set or the new editions to come.

In contrast look at the heated (but respectful & fun) debates on the GWF forum! Bloodline age debates...the battle for Wolf's existance....sci-fi vs. strict wrestling emphasis...all getting fans motivated and loving the game more than before the debates started! This is what helps to make the board an asset to the product, and a benefit to all who play COTG!

So thank you Old Schooler for 'lighting a fire' in the CPC forum's dry hum-drum forest. Lets see if the 'registered posters' can maintain the momentum...or fizzle back to "Gee Mark..can't wait for the next set!" drivel.

[Joe]

I couldn't agree with you more, Paint Dry! That sounded dumb, didn't it? Anyhow, you are on point about the relative boring atmosphere of the CPC Forum. I always appreciate a good argument, and Old Schooler has definitely provided that.

I feel that there are some definite problems with the CPC, but one of them is not roster size. My biggest complaint with the CPC is that while many of the characters have cool stats or good artwork, too many of them seem to lack any personality or character. Case in point is Puma. The first time I saw this character I thought he was the second coming of Wolf. Needless to say, that has yet to be the case.

It also seems like the best wrestlers seem to be backdrops for the big angles rather than actually being the main story. Brainstorm and Shylock are at the forefront of a major feud in 2118, but Raven, Puma, Enigma, Mike Fortune, and really even Jack and Zed seem to be a way from the limelight. I know I am going to get blasted for including Raven and Puma on this list, but the focal point of Savages/Species feud really seems to be Barnabas, Mandrill, and Darwin's Theory rather than two of the elite wrestlers in the CPC.

That being said, I think that Mark storytelling ability and writing style is excellent. The CPC Books are always entertaining and are usually very hard to put down.

I certainly agree with "Paint Dry". I hope that this thread will spark some exciting debates rather than just a round of pats on backs.

[Old Schooler]

Thanks 'Paint' and 'Joe.' At least someone else out there can see that you can go against the grain. And Lars, you say you're glad that Tom hasn't gone VinnieMac and 'stolen' all of Mark's great characters/ideas. Well, see above as I stated there are NO current CPC wrestlers in the GWF that weren't Tom's idea (Muss&Bomb). The thing that makes me not be able to get into the CPC is that the books have so much writing, yet says little. Tom writes a little backstory and then let's you, the game player, have at it and develop it as you see fit. Plus, there are too many Earth guys in the CPC. Now, I'm allm for Earth xharacters, but this is a galaxy wide wrestling organization so I'd like to see maybe a new race of people in lieu of a former video man turned wrestler. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Swarm]

I figure Tom will have 28 wrestlers in NB 2119 because he said there are 37 characters and by sheer
common sense, i believe there will be an equal amount of heroes vs. villians. That means either 28, or 32 wrestlers, or less. There has to be a commisioner. Shannra, Latasha, She-Devil, and Phantasy are all young and new. Plus Strutter, and I assume Thantos will stay since Encubus is getting an update. Thats 38 right there. so I assume the wrestler count wll be 28.

So if NB 2119 has only 28 wrestlers remember "you got stung again by Swarm" and you can all eat crow.

As for the CPC, Mark could develope more than enough complelling story-lnes using any 24 cards he chose, not necessarily the ones i posted. Case in point; Mark devoted 2 or 3 sets to the conspiritor story-lne, right?

BIG BUILD-UP...for what? Not only did Sabatour NOT get an update upon the pay-pff, but HE ISNT EVEN IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW.

That, is unacceptable. Sabatour should be a TOP 3 star in the CPC right now.

I could go on...The Gunnar story; all those mysterious JOD quirks and the pay-off is some mid-level nobody with no depth who is all but ignored and thrown into the middle of a blah feud after the story concludes? How many sets did that build up to?

And the "cross-over" fued with the GWF that Tom makes absolute NO MENTION of in the GWF book. That whole JOD money story-line dragged on for a year ands that was the pay-off?

Use less guys. Build thier characters. Give them a purpose for being WRESTLERS. And if you must use GWF talent, update them. I don't mean kill thier characters like Taurine and Romulus either. Re-united or not, thier time has come and gone.

Enigma, and Colossus were popular highly pushed champions in the CPC in the promoter, but Mark turned his cheek to that and gave us "Franco Jesterelli" and 3 horribly drawn Brainstorm cards.

I could go on. But I have a GWF fight card to play.

[wildman]

Guest-Old said:

I am being fair, Tom has a reason for making guys like that. He gives them a sweet backstory like being a Gladiator of Aethra, or in the Omega family. It seems that the CPC guys have no real justification for having those stats, itt seems as only to try and "catch" the GWF guys..

I TOTALLY DISAGREE THAT CPC WRESTLERS ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN HAVING GOOD STATS!!! ARE YOU SAYING WITH COLBY'S MONEY AND POWER THAT HE CANNOT GET SUPERSTARS?!!!! ARE YOU SAYING THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN GWF THAT THEY ARE NOT TALENTED?? DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY GUYS IN NWA ARE MORE TALENTED THAN SOME GUYS IN THE WWE??? YOUR STATEMENT IS MISGUIDED. 24 WRESTLERS ARE TOO FEW. IT GETS BORING HAVING THE SAME GUYS OVER AND OVER AND OVER. SAYING THAT THE CPC SHOULD GET RID OF ALL FORMER GWF WRESTLERS WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE TELLING WCW OR ECW TO GET RID OF ALL THE FORMER WWE WRESTLERS.

[Mr. Jimmyface]

Guest-Like said:

Many of the better ideas and more creative threads come from the 'guests' who don't register 'official' identities. It helps to make the board focused more on quality ideas, not on cliques and the ego stroking of 'established' posters, which tends to turn off the silent majority of lurkers who lose interest & seldom post .

No, they don't. Lurker is a very appropriate word for people who do not bother to take five minutes to register for a free site. C'mon do it - it's fun!

Guest-Like said:

We need more thought provoking threads and posts...not internet celebrities!

Yes we do... and yes I am!

[Mr. Jimmyface]

Guest-Old said:

The thing that makes me not be able to get into the CPC is that the books have so much writing, yet says little. Tom writes a little backstory and then let's you, the game player, have at it and develop it as you see fit. Plus, there are too many Earth guys in the CPC. Now, I'm allm for Earth xharacters, but this is a galaxy wide wrestling organization so I'd like to see maybe a new race of people in lieu of a former video man turned wrestler. That's all I'm sayin'.

And you said it well - I think you are misguided in some comments, but I will agree with you on this one. I always prefered the writing style of breaking down the rosters by listing the members, their tag partners and main feuds, a quote, and then a paragraph detailing their current roles and place in the fed. I know that Tom is a character driven writer, and Mark is a storyline driven writer. While they both have their merits, I agree with you on that point 100%

(Dude, we should form a tag team - Lars & The Lurker... or The Lurker & Lars. Whatever )

As far as the Earth argument, we also have Mike Fortune. Don't forget about the Hitman for Hire. As much as I despise Earth-biased wrestlers, he's someone who should be more involved in the CPC than he is now. Mark, what does the future hold for The Hitman?

[Trent Lawless]

The Hitman gets hired in 2119. By whom, I won't say.

I don't know exactly why I tend to gravitate to Earth-based wrestlers, but rest assured Cypher is one of those humanoid-but-not-human guys.

For those wondering where Saboteur is, don't worry, he's around. He's a plotter and a planner, remember? You'll hear from him soon enough. Also, Puma definitely gets more "involved" in this set.

While I can see how some may not enjoy it, I'm glad that some folks like my more narrative style of writing than Tom's. That's the only way I can really do it and enjoy it. Everyone who may not like the backstories I give to characters is always free to amend them on their own, as most promoters (including myself) have long done with GWF characters.

There's an old saying that one should write to please oneself, and that if it's any good, others will like it, too. I figure since Tom still wants me to write the CPC sets that it's working out pretty well.

[Like Watching Paint Dry]

"No, they don't. Lurker is a very appropriate word for people who do not bother to take five minutes to register for a free site. C'mon do it - it's fun!"

Firstly the board being 'free' is not an issue. Nothing is really 'free' as time is always spent upon each visit. Taking the time to log-in, install a cookie and god know's what else is not a choice that appeals to many. Especially when you can contribute just as productively without doing so.

Having said that, there is a profound difference between the two terms.

A 'lurker' is someone who silently 'lurks' in the background, observing the content while choosing not to engage in discussion. There is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, and these 'lurkers' tend to constitute the majority of any discussion board.

A poster is ANYONE who contributes content. The extent to which a board is active depends on the perceived quality of the content and the interest of the subject matter of the board is geared toward.

It's worth noting there are very few 'pure' variants of either persuasion. Most people tend to 'double' in their activities as both 'lurker' and 'poster' alike.

However, a problem can arouse when some posters (ahem...) try to turn THEMSELVES into subject matter. Such attention seekers are called TROLLS.

A troll will do things like make a concerted effort to turn themselves into a developed character, in the veil of said character call other posters condescending terms such as 'sheep', tell others how they should/should not navigate the board, make snide ego driven posts, etc.

No doubt these sad cries for attention turn off quite a few 'lurkers' and 'posters' alike...and that's nothing to brag about!

Being 'registered' as some sort of over the top character and making outlandish goofy statements may appeal to your ego needs, but despite your illusions it does nothing to make you a better board member than anyone else here. In fact...your behavior has quite the opposite effect!

The value of the content on the board is ephemeral and if someone who comes here gains some sort of internal benefit in playing or interpreting COTG, more power to them. The issue of whether or not the source of the benefit information is registered or not is beyond trivial.

Yet some seem to very much enjoy missing the forest for the trees while obsessed with staring at their own shadows!

[realityimpaired]

Like Watching Paint Dry for whatever reason you have clumped and stereotyped posters of a message board. This can be a brief summary of sociological trends associated with the function of a message board community but it's not a true representation, in the fact, that you can't assign labels to each individual. The fallacy lies in the assumption that personalities, even on a message board, can be categorized simply. Sure you can establish social norms as with anything else in society; but they are just patterns of individual behavior summarized to its lowest common denominator.

I find the irony thick as you also claim that people turn the character or persona into the main topic, similar to the alteration of the topic of a CPC discussion into rant about the characterization, and dissolution of posters who have join a message board. What say you and I start a relevant topic instead of interrupting one; we can go and start a 'Pro or Con registration topic'

The whole reason to post to a message board is to have discussions regarding topics on the related subject matter as well to culture a database of information. This storage and retention simply can't be described as ephemeral in any way.

However, a problem can arouse when some posters (ahem...) try to turn THEMSELVES into subject matter. Such attention seekers are called TROLLS. A troll will do things like make a concerted effort to turn themselves into a developed character, in the veil of said character call other posters condescending terms such as 'sheep', tell others how they should/should not navigate the board, make snide ego driven posts, etc.

The fact that you're posting this is trolling. Why you might ask? It would appear that you are speaking to people who seem to have a grasp of the concept of message board utilization and by way of telling them the nuisances you've observed it ranks as condescension in any context.

It's nice to see a poster who has a command of the English language and a varied vocabulary. I complement your eloquence but am detracted by your cynicism. I'm inclined to agree with some of what you've said, taking it in an unrefined form; yet, there is a time and a place for those discussions. You have yet to leave any information that's productive to a Cotg player.

While you claim we miss the forest for the trees while you miss the ideology in this statement: "One who fights monsters should see to it that they themselves do not become a monster; when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

[Neil]

I think that everyone should just stop comparing the CPC with the GWF. They are two different feds. Both have great wrestlers and great story lines. Both Tom and Mark have done a fantastic job. I like the CPC wrestlers and believe that they can hold there own in the ring. The GWF also has wrestlers that can hold there own.

[GalactiKing]

I'm actually gald Saboteur isn't back just yet. He definitely needs to be headlining a set and Barnabas has last set and this set. I expect Saboteur(with partner Cypher) will make his vengeful return in 2120.

[Mr. Jimmyface]

I thought trolls lived under bridges... oh well

Anywho, Puma getting more involved is a good thing. Mark seems to turn it up an extra notch during a Galacticon release set. Can't wait to see where 2119 finds our favorite CPC stars.

[floydthebarber]

I've just got to say I've really enjoyed the intensity and effort put forth in this discussion. It just goes to show that there are many passionate promoters out there just like myself, even if I'm only a relative newbie.

I think the CPC offers a great alternative to the GWF from what I have gathered about the fed...and like the WWF/WCW/ECW days, makes things that much more interesting, and leaves things open for debate…which is both entertaining and healthy. If you just like GWF...great...if you prefer CPC over the GWF but run both promotions...great...but don't take it personally if other people have an issue with one fed or the other...its personal preference and opinion, and that's what makes discussion boards so engaging.

I disagree with Lars when he said that in order to have a more valid voice, you have to register. The only benefit of registering really is to make one feel like a member of the 'community' of the board, but that’s not to say that someone who chooses not to register cannot toss their two cents in. I think the problem arises when people use the 'Guest' option to make snide remarks and attack peoples opinions, which I don't think happened in this instance. And I agree, some of the best points have been raised by guests…but its clear these guests are very into the game too.

Personally, I feel 30-40 wrestlers is better than 24-28...but that being said, in the context of a New Beginning, it makes sense to trim down the roster and open the door for the cream to rise to the top, give the wrestlers more room to grow and develop, and open roster spots for newcomers and returning veterans (Tom has said many of the 'cut' wrestlers will still be in the GWF's emply at the training facility, so you could very well see them in 2020 or 2021 along with the normal 3-5 new faces).

I think the overall mood among promoters is one of excitement, and I for one kind of wish I could jump into this along with everyone else, but being in late-late 2089, I'm content to enjoy what those game years have to offer and look forward to introducing many great wrestlers to an already interesting mix of Superstars and Mid Carders. Plus, I may even make it to the GWF/CPC wars which started off all this madness in the first place and finally see what all the fuss is about!

I'm a fan of the whole GWF Universe, unfortunately, I'm not up to date and don't have the benefit of knowing what IS going on in the CPC and the differences between Mark and Tom's writing...but from everything I'm reading, it sounds like each has many loyal and rabid fans...and I think that's all Tom and Mark ask.