WWE VS TNA

[Highway61Revisited]

swarm said:

highway61revisited said:

Care to elaborate?

If you can name workers with a better grasp on the universals of being a good professional wrestler and explain this in detail, that's fine. However rolling your eyes because you disagree isn't that strong of an argument.

There's no precedent that ANY wrestler (with the exception of Benoit) has been better since 2002 than any of the people I've mentioned.

I can name a ton of guys who actually make the company they work for money...

Umaga, Cena, Nitro, Carlito, HHH, HBK, Kane, Kennedy, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Big Show, Sabu, RVD, CM Punk, Undertaker, Rey Mysterio, Finlay, Lashley, Batista, Edge, Orton, Benjamin, Booker,and Vince McMahon himself all all better wrestlers than everyone you mentioned.

I don't care how many flip-flops TNA guys can do in one match. Show me the money.

and until you do...you suck at wrestling.

What exactly does making money have to do with wrestling ability? And if making money has anything to do with it then why would you list Shawn (one of the lesser draws as WWE champ) and Triple H who lose viewers consistently during their time on television.

Most of the wrestlers you named are complete and utter garbage when it comes to ANY of the universals.

Let me map those out for you, since it seems you're having a hard time.

1) Pacing
2) Selling
3) Storytelling
4) Psychology

You also mentioned flip-flopping? You listed Shelton, Jeff Hardy, RVD. See a problem there? Atleast during TNA's hustle style (which if you checked previous posts, I'm not the biggest fan of myself) the stuff looks crisp. Play a drinking game with those three and look for blown spots. You'll be plastered by the time Jeff gets to the ring.

The wrestlers you mentioned work a very constrained style. I'm glad you enjoy it but for the love of all that is holy before you start comparing and constrasting wrestlers atleast have some semblence of an IDEA what you're talking about.

Umaga? I don't think he even gets one of the four!

Cena? Terribly sloppy. I LIKE the guy. But he's a terrible wrestler.

Nitro? Is that grape Kool-AId?

Carlito? Improved but to say that he's in the top tier of workers is innane.

HHH? I think this was a joke. It seriously had to be.

HBK? Ah, the king of the no sell himself. Perhaps the most overrated wrestler this side of Kurt Angle.

Kane? Immobile doesn't equate to a strong professional wrestler I don't believe.

Kennedy? Are you trying to give me a heart attack?

The list goes on and on.

To the poster above who mentioned that the guys I wrote don't tell stories. PM me. I'll give you several examples of those guys fulfilling every quality I just mentioned. I listed some of the top WORKERS in the world. This has nothing to do with money. Hulk Hogan was a better DRAW than these guys. Two completely different things.

[swarm]

your post is nice and well thought out, but it means nothing. making money is all that matters in wrestling.

if you make money, you are doing your job as a wrestler and you are good at it. all the guys I mentioned fall into that category.

if you don't, then you suck at your job. none of the guys you mentioned make any money for TNA. Nobody cares about them. nobody wants to pay to see them.

wrestling is a business. you get into a business to make money.

don't make everything so complicated, cause it's not.

[Bazzy]

It would be great , making dreams into reality . Only trouble who would lose to who ? Or who would face who ? . WWE would have nothing to prove and TNA would gain from it , though ?

[Knapik]

It's incorrect to say being popular also makes you good. There's a ton of terrible music that does very well. A lot of terrible movies make a lot of money.

There are a lot of terrible wrestlers that are very popular.

I don't care what's popular, I care what's good. WWE makes more money than Ring of Honor does, but what the hell do I care? If Ring of Honor is more entertaining, I'll watch it even if I was the only one who did.

[gwffantrav]

Sometimes, people aren't wh***s for money....they actually like to do what they enjoy. Some actually don't mind being "poor", as long as they enjoy what they do.

If I had to choose between TNA and the WWE, and I could make somewhat close to what I could in WWE with selected indy dates and a Japan tour thrown in the mix, yet spend more time home with my wife and kids...sign me up for TNA.

Great points Jon

[GOODZILLA]

Trav you made some good points (you too knapik), but I think the point is that no matter how "good" a wrestler is, their job is to make money. A wrestler can put on great matches, be well respected by his peers, and retire knowing that he was a great worker and had a long career .... he would be considered a good wrestler but if he never made his company money then, in the grand scheme of things, it would be impossible to consider him a successful professional wrestler.

Edit: And it doesn't matter how much anyone here LOVES TNA ... if their wrestlers don't start making them money then all these arguments won't even matter. That company is a money pit.

[gwffantrav]

bad2begood said:

Trav you made some good points (you too knapik), but I think the point is that no matter how "good" a wrestler is, their job is to make money. A wrestler can put on great matches, be well respected by his peers, and retire knowing that he was a great worker and had a long career .... he would be considered a good wrestler but if he never made his company money then, in the grand scheme of things, it would be impossible to consider him a successful professional wrestler.

Nice points as well Good.

[Knapik]

Good post, Good.

I would say a wrestler retiring like that could still be considered a success if he entertained hundreds of thousands and was regarded by fans as a great wrestler. Financially perhaps he wasn't a success, but to those who loved the guy he was a hero. Bryan Danielson may never bring in the big bucks, but he will most definitely retire a success.

[GOODZILLA]

knapik said:

Good post, Good.

I would say a wrestler retiring like that could still be considered a success if he entertained hundreds of thousands and was regarded by fans as a great wrestler. Financially perhaps he wasn't a success, but to those who loved the guy he was a hero. Bryan Danielson may never bring in the big bucks, but he will most definitely retire a success.

Yep, problem is, if a wrestler doesn't make money he'll probably end up spending most of his career in the indy circuit or wrestling for smaller feds that don't reach nearly as many fans ... thus making it harder for him to truly make a name for himself and be considered a successful wrestler.

I can' t believe I'm still awake. Am I making sense??

[swarm]

knapik said:

It's incorrect to say being popular also makes you good. There's a ton of terrible music that does very well. A lot of terrible movies make a lot of money.

There are a lot of terrible wrestlers that are very popular.

I don't care what's popular, I care what's good. WWE makes more money than Ring of Honor does, but what the hell do I care? If Ring of Honor is more entertaining, I'll watch it even if I was the only one who did.

I understand this and this is a strong post. no argument. my point is simply that when you go to the WWE, you are going to the best, making the money, and making money for your company.

Until AJ Styles, and American Dragon sell out Wrestlemania, John Cena and HHH are 50 billion times better wrestlers.

be cool.

[swarm]

gwffantrav said:

Sometimes, people aren't wh***s for money....they actually like to do what they enjoy. Some actually don't mind being "poor", as long as they enjoy what they do.

then those people have never known the feeling of never having to worry about money.

[gwffantrav]

Just your opinion..which means about 0 to about 90% of the members of the board

[Highway61Revisited]

swarm said:

your post is nice and well thought out, but it means nothing. making money is all that matters in wrestling.

if you make money, you are doing your job as a wrestler and you are good at it. all the guys I mentioned fall into that category.

if you don't, then you suck at your job. none of the guys you mentioned make any money for TNA. Nobody cares about them. nobody wants to pay to see them.

wrestling is a business. you get into a business to make money.

don't make everything so complicated, cause it's not.

Swarm you aren't talking about WRESTLING ability. You're talking about DRAWING power. The two are completely different.

I'm not making anything complicated, I'm talking about what makes a great worker inside the ring. Again, money has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: Also to insinuate that these guys aren't draws isn't quite correct. On the indy scene any time these guys are on a card, you can bet that it will be sold out or atleast a near sell-out. However they have never been booked correctly on a national level and haven't been allowed to shine. So you really have no idea what most of them could do if they were booked as strong as a WWE top guy and had that exposure. So to compare them as draws is apples to oranges. Because they fulfill their niche quite well.

[swarm]

highway61revisited said:

swarm said:

your post is nice and well thought out, but it means nothing. making money is all that matters in wrestling.

if you make money, you are doing your job as a wrestler and you are good at it. all the guys I mentioned fall into that category.

if you don't, then you suck at your job. none of the guys you mentioned make any money for TNA. Nobody cares about them. nobody wants to pay to see them.

wrestling is a business. you get into a business to make money.

don't make everything so complicated, cause it's not.

Swarm you aren't talking about WRESTLING ability. You're talking about DRAWING power. The two are completely different.

I'm not making anything complicated, I'm talking about what makes a great worker inside the ring. Again, money has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: Also to insinuate that these guys aren't draws isn't quite correct. On the indy scene any time these guys are on a card, you can bet that it will be sold out or at least a near sell-out. However they have never been booked correctly on a national level and haven't been allowed to shine. So you really have no idea what most of them could do if they were booked as strong as a WWE top guy and had that exposure. So to compare them as draws is apples to oranges. Because they fulfill their niche quite well.

I get the first part...totally cool with that...but without drawing power, who cares? Wrestling isn't a sport. It's a business. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll understand that being a good worker doesn't equate to being a great wrestler. never has, never will. It's all about the money.

and secondly, no, it's not apples to oranges...that's like arguing the guys in Arena league Football are better than the guys in the NFL, and there is really no way of telling if they'd make it big in the NFL until unless they were there...

wrong. They are in the Arena league because they suck. And the guys in TNA are in TNA because they suck. If they could make Vince money, he would have them in the WWE...

and right now, none of the guys you mentioned are making money for this industry. I'm just stating the facts here.

[Highway61Revisited]

swarm said:

highway61revisited said:

Swarm you aren't talking about WRESTLING ability. You're talking about DRAWING power. The two are completely different.

I'm not making anything complicated, I'm talking about what makes a great worker inside the ring. Again, money has nothing to do with that.

EDIT: Also to insinuate that these guys aren't draws isn't quite correct. On the indy scene any time these guys are on a card, you can bet that it will be sold out or at least a near sell-out. However they have never been booked correctly on a national level and haven't been allowed to shine. So you really have no idea what most of them could do if they were booked as strong as a WWE top guy and had that exposure. So to compare them as draws is apples to oranges. Because they fulfill their niche quite well.

I get the first part...totally cool with that...but without drawing power, who cares? Wrestling isn't a sport. It's a business. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll understand that being a good worker doesn't equate to being a great wrestler. never has, never will. It's all about the money.

and secondly, no, it's not apples to oranges...that's like arguing the guys in Arena league Football are better than the guys in the NFL, and there is really no way of telling if they'd make it big in the NFL until unless they were there...

wrong. They are in the Arena league because they suck. And the guys in TNA are in TNA because they suck. If they could make Vince money, he would have them in the WWE...

and right now, none of the guys you mentioned are making money for this industry. I'm just stating the facts here.

Guys don't just go to WWE on the drop of a hat, some guys don't WANT to work in the WWE. Going to Japan is just as big for them. In fact, Joe probably makes more per year on the indy scene than a lot of WWE guys. The WWE isn't the "major leagues" for everyone and using that as the basis of your argument because that's what the population considers "the major league" is flawed.

Take for example Kenta Kobashi. If the WWE decided to run a HHH/Kobashi match would it get the biggest buyrate ever? No. Does this mean Kobashi isn't a draw? Absolutely not. It means he's not a draw with the WWE target audience.

I understand you like the WWE lots and lots. That's totally cool but it really inebriates you at times and it's like debating with a wall. Noone is SAYING these guys make more money. You said they weren't TALENTED enough to go over WWE talent. Ask any wrestling expert and they will list most of the guy I just said in their top 20 wrestlers in the world.

So, no, they couldn't sell out the Staples Center. But they can certainly out-sell John Cena anyday.

[gatekeeper]

highway61revisited said:

I understand you like the WWE lots and lots. That's totally cool but it really inebriates you at times and it's like debating with a wall. Noone is SAYING these guys make more money. You said they weren't TALENTED enough to go over WWE talent. Ask any wrestling expert and they will list most of the guy I just said in their top 20 wrestlers in the world.

So, no, they couldn't sell out the Staples Center. But they can certainly out-sell John Cena anyday.

I understand what you're saying, and you make some good points but I don't see how they could "out-sell" John Cena. Unless you're talking about in the ring itself. They couldn't sell more merchandise of tickets.

[swarm]

highway61revisited said:

swarm said:

I get the first part...totally cool with that...but without drawing power, who cares? Wrestling isn't a sport. It's a business. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll understand that being a good worker doesn't equate to being a great wrestler. never has, never will. It's all about the money.

and secondly, no, it's not apples to oranges...that's like arguing the guys in Arena league Football are better than the guys in the NFL, and there is really no way of telling if they'd make it big in the NFL until unless they were there...

wrong. They are in the Arena league because they suck. And the guys in TNA are in TNA because they suck. If they could make Vince money, he would have them in the WWE...

and right now, none of the guys you mentioned are making money for this industry. I'm just stating the facts here.

So, no, they couldn't sell out the Staples Center. But they can certainly out-sell John Cena anyday.

no. no they can't. that is ridiculous. and comparing Kobashi to TNA wrestlers is a joke too...

I mean, really? c'mon.

[Highway61Revisited]

How is it ridiculous? At this point in his career, Samoa Joe is Kobashi's superior.

And yes, yes, they can out-sell John Cena. I was using it as a pun. Because John Cena's not all that great in the ring? The guys I listed all (for the most part) bring a stiff, technician/story-telling based, complex body of ring ability to the table. They are better wrestlers than anyone you listed. I'd just like you to admit that. NOONE is talking about business. The idea of this PPV is so absurd that it's not even the topic anymore. You went and said that, "Noone is talented enough to go over anyone on the WWE roster." You're clearly wrong. Anyone with a coherent grasp on what professional wrestling is would realize that. I mean c'mon, Swarm. Why are you drinking so much of Vince's Kool-Aid? I can sit here and criticize TNA all day but never would I criticize their wrestlers. You're taking out your hatred (strange, I could NEVER work up that kind of emotion about TNA) of TNA on guys who bust thier butt night in and night out. These guys actually LOVE what they do.

You talk about money but money just isn't everything to me. I'd hate to become that jaded that all I could see in life were the dollar signs. You have a group of guys who are more talented and bust their butt so much harder than anyone in the E (with a few exceptions and yes, John Cena is one of them) because they LOVE professional wrestling. Samoa Joe took the mic after the Kobashi/Homicide vs. Joe/Ki match and said, "They tried to give us 'rasslin and it failed. They tried to give us sports entertainment and we got bored. We're here to give you WRESTLING." (That was paraphrased)

Am I in denial and saying that WWE sucks and they don't make money because of a lesser in-ring product? No. Am I saying that WWE doesn't have the caliber of workers that TNA and ROH have? Yes, I am. It's evident. When Bryan Danielson says he's the, "Best in the world", he has a very damn good case. It's not some musclebound found who has no grasp on logical pacing. That makes it an almost impossibility for us to suspend our disbelief. It's not about some guy that throws crappy punches.

It's when two guys go out and tell a story for sixty minutes in Edison, NJ. It's when a company is teetering on the brink of closing and one of it's stars stands in the middle of the ring and says, "F*** anybody who wants to stop us!", it's Jumbo Tsuruta putting over Mitsuharu Misawa as the new generation, it's Joe's bruised chest that he gave to the fans against Kenta Kobashi (ha, name me a worker in the E who would do that?), it's getting logical storylines and coherent finishes, it's free of nepotism, favoritism, politics, and glass ceilings. It's a world that's probably unknown to many wrestling fans but those who do know hold it very personally and realize it's magic, it's purity, the way it transcends almost everything and for just a few moments, you're a child again. Lost in the battle between two epic warriors. That is professional wrestling. People who do THAT are professional wrestlers.

Not people who follow a script, not people who go through the motions of a constrained style. THAT is professional wrestling.

[swarm]

highway61revisited said:

How is it ridiculous? At this point in his career, Samoa Joe is basically Kobashi's equal.

And yes, yes, they can out-sell John Cena. I was using it as a pun. Because John Cena's not all that great in the ring? The guys I listed all (for the most part) bring a stiff, technician/story-telling based, complex body of ring ability to the table. They are better wrestlers than anyone you listed. I'd just like you to admit that. NOONE is talking about business. The idea of this PPV is so absurd that it's not even the topic anymore. You went and said that, "Noone is talented enough to go over anyone on the WWE roster." You're clearly wrong. Anyone with a coherent grasp on what professional wrestling is would realize that. I mean c'mon, Swarm. Why are you drinking so much of Vince's Kool-Aid? I can sit here and criticize TNA all day but never would I criticize their wrestlers. You're taking out your hatred (strange, I could NEVER work up that kind of emotion about TNA) of TNA on guys who bust thier butt night in and night out. These guys actually LOVE what they do.

You talk about money but money just isn't everything to me. I'd hate to become that jaded that all I could see in life were the dollar signs. You have a group of guys who are more talented and bust their butt so much harder than anyone in the E (with a few exceptions and yes, John Cena is one of them) because they LOVE professional wrestling. Samoa Joe took the mic after the Kobashi/Homicide vs. Joe/Ki match and said, "They tried to give us 'rasslin and it failed. They tried to give us sports entertainment and we got bored. We're here to give you WRESTLING." (That was paraphrased)

Am I in denial and saying that WWE sucks and they don't make money because of a lesser in-ring product? No. Am I saying that WWE doesn't have the caliber of workers that TNA and ROH have? Yes, I am. It's evident. When Bryan Danielson says he's the, "Best in the world", he has a very damn good case. It's not some musclebound found who has no grasp on logical pacing. That makes it an almost impossibility for us to suspend our disbelief. It's not about some guy that throws crappy punches.

It's when two guys go out and tell a story for sixty minutes in Edison, NJ. It's when a company is teetering on the brink of closing and one of it's stars stands in the middle of the ring and says, "F*** anybody who wants to stop us!", it's Jumbo Tsuruta putting over Mitsuharu Misawa as the new generation, it's Joe's bruised chest that he gave to the fans against Kenta Kobashi (ha, name me a worker in the E who would do that?), it's getting logical storylines and coherent finishes, it's free of nepotism, favoritism, politics, and glass ceilings. It's a world that's probably unknown to many wrestling fans but those who do know hold it very personally and realize it's magic, it's purity, the way it transcends almost everything and for just a few moments, you're a child again. Lost in the battle between two epic warriors. That is professional wrestling. People who do THAT are professional wrestlers.

Not people who follow a script, not people who go through the motions of a constrained style. THAT is professional wrestling.

I couldn't finish reading all this...just way too many points bunched together in paragraphs...hurts my eyes...

but I get the jest of what you are saying, and I understand your point. totally cool.

But I'm a realist. Not jaded, don't "hate" any TNA wrestlers, but man, money is all it boils down to...

I know you're a young college kid with this passion for the floppiest wrestlers, and that's fine. No big deal. I used to be a kid too...loved a bunch of wrestlers who sucked because i didn't know any better...

but as a professional business man, if I didn't take money into consideration when discussing A BUSINESS, I'd be fooling myself...

business is business. I'm a helluva a power-lifter...done many competitons...won lots of trophy's...great...big deal...have I ever been sponsored and made anyone a ton of money? no.

so therefore, I'm not this great power-lifter. do I do it because i love it? of course. but that's because it's a hobby...I have a career.

but if it was all I did, I'd be shopping for sponsors, trying to be the best I could be to make money from them, and for them...

but I'm not.

So me being a power-lifter doesn't really mean [censored]. big deal.

there are tons of guys out there, who maybe even aren't as strong as me, who are making someone money...and they're way better than me as power-lifters because of it.

that's all I'm saying.

[swarm]

highway61revisited said:

...Not people who follow a script, not people who go through the motions of a constrained style. THAT is professional wrestling.

yeah I know that's my whole point. spot monkeys aren't pro wrestlers. WWE superstars are pro wrestlers. glad we could pin the tail on the donkey here.