RAW's USA debut show

[ringsyde]

Think about the show, the roster and the matches, and predict tonite's show's impact.

[gwffantrav]

I don't think it will be a huge impact. I don't think the casual fan really knows of the move to USA, since it really wasn't promoted on the Raw Spike until last week.

[Big Bri]

The ratings will be high tonight, but then dip back down to "normal" over the next two weeks, unless they can get a really good angle going.

[Joe]

Vince usually does pretty well when he knows in advance he's going to have a bigger audience than usual. When Tyson appeared on RAW, he gave Austin the opportunity to shine, and the guy went on to become the biggest money-maker ever in the business.

[dennish]

I see the WWE put on a show tonight, it will draw well but things will be back to normal. I have a feeling that things will not be that good tonight, if the show is so-so TNA this Saturday for a 1 hour show will be better then 3 hours of the WWE.

[Omen]

Remember the old saying "Don't believe the hype"
That fits here. In started well but faded as the night worn on ... Remember the Wrestlemania with the Tournament that dragged and got bogged down by it's own weight... 3 hours is along time to keep peeps attention, when the average attention span is 15 mins. tops

[tafkaga]

This was a big show for them... sort of like a jumping on point... so they did their best to pull out all the stops. But without any competition WWE isn't going to keep raising the bar.

Currently WWE is doing the same thing that they criticized WCW so much for. The most interesting things that they're doing involve 50+ year old guys like Hogan and Flair. Now they're trying to sell us a Hogan/Austin match... no doubt people will buy the pay per view just to see this.

Seems to me that things are not going so well when they have to rely on the WCW formula of bringing in 50+ year old guys to headline their PPV's when they're surrounded by young athletic guys that they don't know what to do with.

[swarm]

tafkaga said:

This was a big show for them... sort of like a jumping on point... so they did their best to pull out all the stops. But without any competition WWE isn't going to keep raising the bar.

Currently WWE is doing the same thing that they criticized WCW so much for. The most interesting things that they're doing involve 50+ year old guys like Hogan and Flair. Now they're trying to sell us a Hogan/Austin match... no doubt people will buy the pay per view just to see this.

Seems to me that things are not going so well when they have to rely on the WCW formula of bringing in 50+ year old guys to headline their PPV's when they're surrounded by young athletic guys that they don't know what to do with.

I really disagree.

Hogan, Flair and Austin (along with The Rock) are the biggest money-making names in Pro Wrestling History. HBK is behind them, but he's right behind them.

WCW created ONE NEW WRESTLER in how many years? It was Goldberg. That's it. They ignored thier young talent who eventually all went to the WWF while concentrating all thier story-lines, shows, PPVs, Main Events, and marketing around the nWo.

The WWE currently continues to try and get as much mileage as possible out of thier Legends like Hogan and Austin (and damn right people will pay to see it), while creating tons of new faces like Shelton, Snitsky, Chris Masters, Carlito, Murdoch, Cade, Kennedy, Blaster, Burchill, Cena etc...

I would hardly say they don't know what to do with thier young stars.

And despite Hogan's age, how can anyone really doubt the business genuis of putting him in a one time match with Austin?

Talk to me about the "WCW Formula" when Tom Cruise starts winning the World Title, they air RAW from an empty arena, and Dusty makes himself the focal point of the show week after week.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt because I believe you are the guy who just said you "boy-cotted RAW" or WWE or something, so I guess you don't watch it.

swarm

[tafkaga]

I don't disagree at all about the greatness of Hogan and Flair. My only point is that for so long they flaunted themselves as the "New Generation" and made fun of WCW for using old wrestlers... now they're using old wrestlers to sell pay per views.

As far as these great new wrestlers that WWE has created over the past few years... about half of those names are of guys that I read more negatives about than positives. With the exception of Shelton, I've seen a lot more negativity surrounding those other names... especially Snitsky. With the exception of a few hardcore followers, the general consensus of wrestling fans these days seems to be that WWE isn't delivering.

As for WCW not creating anyone but Goldberg... that's incorrect. I'll list some names:

1. Booker T - one half of one of the all time great tag teams, Harlem Heat... went on to be a multi-time TV, US, and World Champion. Had a great best of 7 series of matches with Benoit. Was deservedly pushed toward the end of WCW's days as their top guy.

2. Scott Steiner - one half of one of the all time great tag teams... was eventually repackaged into Big Poppa Pump who became a top heel or tweener with fan appeal.

3. Sting - sure WCW didn't create his original Sting persona, but repackaged him and made him even bigger than ever with the Crow-Sting gimmick.

4. Chris Benoit - where did this guy first become popular with American fans? Where did he wrestle most of his best matches when not in Japan? It was in WCW. Sure, he doesn't think he was treated right by them... but to say that they didn't push him or weren't a great deal responsible for his fame is totally wrong.

5. Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio - unless you watched ECW you didn't know who these guys were until they showed up in WCW and became two of its top attractions. They put on great matches in the cruiserweight division. Before Eddie ever became Latino Heat he worked some great angles such as the one where he slapped Chavo around. Did Bischoff treat them right? No. Did Eddie and Rey reach mainstream appeal in WCW? Yes.

6. Vader - Unless you watched Japanese wrestling you didn't know who Vader was... until he came to WCW. That's where he was pushed to the moon as the monster heel who became a household names to American wrestling fans in the early to mid 90's.

7. Chris Jericho - Despite his discontent with the company, Jericho became a star in WCW. In my opinion his funniest material was in WCW.

8. The Cat - one of the most entertaining performers in the later years of WCW. Was only ok as a wrestler but was great behind the mic. Did he go on to be another Rock or Austin? No. Did WCW give this guy his big break? Yes.

9. DDP - Did WWE make him a star? No, they just deflated him by jobbing him to everyone on their roster. DDP became a big name in WCW. He had several world title reigns and was a top face and heel there for many years.

10. Big Show - before he was a giant fat guy and jobber to the stars in WWE, he was a dominant monster in WCW as the Giant. Whatever Paul Wight might think about the company that gave him his break, this is where he reached stardom and became a big deal in the wrestling business. This is where he won his first World title.

There's just 10 guys that WCW basically put on the map. Don't get me wrong, I think WCW did a great deal of creativily questionable things... but I can't get over how many people there are that say WCW never made any good wrestlers and how short sighted that statement is.

[swarm]

No I said they didn't create any new stars during the nWo era...or at least that is what I meant...maybe I worded it wrong?

Goldberg was the only guy during that era that they created, while half the guys on your list jumped ship to the WWE after being ignored.

And I love Snitsky. The guy is this era's Kane and he's awesome.

For what it's worth, I think alot of the WWE haters are people like yourself who either don't watch the shows, and ppv's, or tape RAW and fast forward through it.

so coming from someone who watches always...yeah the WWE could do some things differently, but it is not even half as bad as a lot of the people here, and on other boards make it out to be.

I honestly can't remember a RAW or a PPV I haven't enjoyed since the G.A.B. last year.

swarm

[tafkaga]

But WCW DID create/push/put other wrestlers on the map during the nWo period other than the veterans. Not one of the guys on that list was ignored by WCW. Were a few of them underutilized? Yeah...but ignored? No. Did you really watch WCW during that era?

Mysterio wrestled every Monday night. He was hyped heavily and became the premiere cruiserweight of the company. Guerrero wrestled every Monday night, feuded with Ric Flair over the US title and won it....turned heel and had a very entertaining angle with Chavo. Chris Benoit was a Horseman and one of the top faces in the company for years... was eventually pushed into the main event. Scott Steiner went from being a tag team wrestler to a main event tweener with great fan appeal. DDP's record speaks to itself... WCW put him on the map and made him a top wrestler in America. Same for Paul Wight who was the youngest World champion of all time and had main event feuds with Hollywood Hogan, the top heel in the company. Booker T holds a record for tag team title reigns... captured virtually every belt that the company had multiple times and in the end was their #1 guy and World Champion.

I'm not sure how you can say that these guys were ignored so they jumped ship. It's really not true at all. Management of WCW was screwed up. There were a lot of backstage politics that kept them from getting pushed like they thought they should have been. They were no doubt underutilized... but you can't say that they were ignored or that WCW had no role in creating these guys when that's where they became stars.

The only reason that people say Goldberg was the only guy they created, was because he is the one guy who rose above everyone else to become nearly Rock or Austin calibur. But how many guys actually reach that level? Whether you're talking WWE or WCW, rarely does anyone catch on like that. Goldberg might have been their most successful creation, but he was certainly not the only one. And the others didn't become stars by getting ignored by WCW and jumping ship to WWE. All of the guys on that list were already big stars before Vince ever touched them. Some of them were even bigger stars BEFORE Vince touched them.

As for me not liking WWE... I was a WWF mark from about 1985 to 1997. I still watched it, but not as religiously as before. I didn't like the direction so I supported WCW. When I said that I boycotted Raw, that was a bit too strong of a word to use. I have not actively boycotted it as a means of protest. I still go back and watch WWE from time to time, but it bores me. But whether it's as bad as people say or not...those are opinions. The quality of WWE's shows is relative, since it's basically decided by opinions. And if 8 out of 10 people say Gene Snitsky sucks, that's a good sign that he's not going to be the next Kane.

[swarm]

tafkaga said:

But WCW DID create/push/put other wrestlers on the map during the nWo period other than the veterans. Not one of the guys on that list was ignored by WCW. Were a few of them underutilized? Yeah...but ignored? No. Did you really watch WCW during that era?

Mysterio wrestled every Monday night. He was hyped heavily and became the premiere cruiserweight of the company. Guerrero wrestled every Monday night, feuded with Ric Flair over the US title and won it....turned heel and had a very entertaining angle with Chavo. Chris Benoit was a Horseman and one of the top faces in the company for years... was eventually pushed into the main event. Scott Steiner went from being a tag team wrestler to a main event tweener with great fan appeal. DDP's record speaks to itself... WCW put him on the map and made him a top wrestler in America. Same for Paul Wight who was the youngest World champion of all time and had main event feuds with Hollywood Hogan, the top heel in the company. Booker T holds a record for tag team title reigns... captured virtually every belt that the company had multiple times and in the end was their #1 guy and World Champion.

I'm not sure how you can say that these guys were ignored so they jumped ship. It's really not true at all. Management of WCW was screwed up. There were a lot of backstage politics that kept them from getting pushed like they thought they should have been. They were no doubt underutilized... but you can't say that they were ignored or that WCW had no role in creating these guys when that's where they became stars.

The only reason that people say Goldberg was the only guy they created, was because he is the one guy who rose above everyone else to become nearly Rock or Austin calibur. But how many guys actually reach that level? Whether you're talking WWE or WCW, rarely does anyone catch on like that. Goldberg might have been their most successful creation, but he was certainly not the only one. And the others didn't become stars by getting ignored by WCW and jumping ship to WWE. All of the guys on that list were already big stars before Vince ever touched them. Some of them were even bigger stars BEFORE Vince touched them.

As for me not liking WWE... I was a WWF mark from about 1985 to 1997. I still watched it, but not as religiously as before. I didn't like the direction so I supported WCW. When I said that I boycotted Raw, that was a bit too strong of a word to use. I have not actively boycotted it as a means of protest. I still go back and watch WWE from time to time, but it bores me. But whether it's as bad as people say or not...those are opinions. The quality of WWE's shows is relative, since it's basically decided by opinions. And if 8 out of 10 people say Gene Snitsky sucks, that's a good sign that he's not going to be the next Kane.

1) Yes I did.

2) Have you read "THE DEATH OF WCW"? or have you seen the "MONDAY NIGHT WARS" dvd?

3) Goldberg never came anywhere close to the level of The Rock, or Austin. Hell, he never even reached the level of Sting...

4) Snitsky has, and has had since his debut, a HUGE fan following among the IWC. Believe me, I've been through this before.

5) He already is the next Kane. He's the big monster heel that Bischoff puts against the "under-dog" hero but loses. He is very entertaining. You should really watch him. He's great.

[tafkaga]

2. Yes and yes... the second of which is ridiculously pro WWE, pro-McMahon biased... and I don't see how this really disproves what I said about these guys being made in WCW.

3. Goldberg was built up in such a way that he could not be anything but short term. If he were properly pushed and his attitude were different, he could have been nearly at the level of the Rock, if not at the same level.

4. I can only tell you that when I saw Snitsky, it didn't move me one way or another. But talking to you is the first time I've ever heard anything good about him from the IWC.

5. I don't care much about watching him... or any of those guys. I'm just going by all of the negative reactions I've heard to the character's you've mentioned that have been successful WWE creations. I only have one opinion and even if I thought he was wonderful, it wouldn't change much. After all I liked the New Rockers... but they failed at least in part because no one else did.

[swarm]

it's cool. I like your opinions.

I really believe all of the guys you mentioned outside of Booker T were made into MUCH bigger stars once they made it to the WWF.

Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero all were WWF Champion.

but opinions vary. it's cool.

[thefamoustommyz]

In defense of people who fast forward during Raw...I don't hit that button until they MAKE me. Like, I use all my willpower not too...but when I see Rob Schneider on my wrestling program...

[Joe]

The reason it is a commonly accepted theory that WCW did not create any new stars other than Goldberg is because they all became much bigger once they left.

People such as Benoit, Guerrero and Jericho were basically told by Eric Bischoff that they could only rise so high in the company. Daimond Dallas Page did become a pretty big star during his tenure in WCW, but he is really the only one who blew up there. Benoit and Guerrero far surpassed what they were allowed to do in WCW, as has Rey Misterio.

Booker T, Scott Steiner and Sting were all made guys before the nWo era, and to say that Vader was made into a star during that era is ridiculous. Basically, all of the guys mentioned were people who had potential runs stopped in favor of running already made-stars to death at the top of the card. In the cases of Steiner and Booker, and perhaps even DDP, they did not start winning World titles and headlining until most of the old guys decided they were going to start sitting home and Vince Russo started passing the belt around like a joint at a Tom Petty concert.

WCW did a poor job at developing while stars, instead almost exclusively relying on old-timers. That is far from the case in WWE.

[swarm]

joe said:

The reason it is a commonly accepted theory that WCW did not create any new stars other than Goldberg is because they all became much bigger once they left.

People such as Benoit, Guerrero and Jericho were basically told by Eric Bischoff that they could only rise so high in the company. Daimond Dallas Page did become a pretty big star during his tenure in WCW, but he is really the only one who blew up there. Benoit and Guerrero far surpassed what they were allowed to do in WCW, as has Rey Misterio.

Booker T, Scott Steiner and Sting were all made guys before the nWo era, and to say that Vader was made into a star during that era is ridiculous. Basically, all of the guys mentioned were people who had potential runs stopped in favor of running already made-stars to death at the top of the card. In the cases of Steiner and Booker, and perhaps even DDP, they did not start winning World titles and headlining until most of the old guys decided they were going to start sitting home and Vince Russo started passing the belt around like a joint at a Tom Petty concert.

WCW did a poor job at developing while stars, instead almost exclusively relying on old-timers. That is far from the case in WWE.

Thanks for backing me up Joe. As usual, we are on the same wave-length.

[pikemojo]

WCW did not create superstars because WWE owns the word superstar and only they can create them. kidding
I actually do think that WCW did create stars whether they became bigger in WWE or not. Would you say that WWE did not create the Rock because he is bigger now in Hollywood? NO. So just because WCW did not fully utilize their stars does not mean that they did not create them. They may have used the wrong people and made some bad choices on who to push to the top but I would really argue that they did indeed make stars.
I would also say that alot of people always viewed (and maybe rightly so) that WWE/F was at all times the big game compared to WCW. So no matter what going to WWE was a step up and thus "proving" that WCW did not create that star because they became "bigger" in WWE. Booker T is a great example of this. He was a 5 time WCW champ (betcha didn't know that one) and he has yet to really come that close to being WWE champ. Some would still view WWE as a step up for him though.