Rickson Gracie Interview

[LWPD]

The following is an extensive interview with Rickson Gracie. I'll break it down in parts to make it easier on the eye.

Courtesy of Gracie Magazine

Rickson Gracie Interview

By three-time world champion Marcio Feitosa

Jiu-Jitsu icon accepts to be interviewed by three-time world champion, replies to Wanderlei Silva, clears his criticism on the level of MMA fighters and bets on his new tournament, which creates a worldwide BJJ ranking and promises to valorize the sport and the athletes in an unheard-of way

My first personal contact with Rickson happened when I was still a purple-belt, back in 1994. I had the privilege of taking part in one of those notorious training sessions where he would defeat no less than ten people, most top black-belts of the time. I was used as warming up: I tapped out in about one and a half minute. Since I was a kid, hence, I've been A fan of Rickson's.In the end of October, I was preparing to work as referee in the brand new Budo Challenge here in California, when I got a call and a proposition.

The event was three days away and on the other end of the line was Luca, GRACIE Magazine's editor.Then he asked what he thought was a favor: "Could you please interview Rickson, focusing on this news called Budo Challenge?" At the time I could say no more than, "Are you kiddin' me?" I was all excited with it. Of course I wouldn't let this chance slip by.

As soon as I hung up, I knew I was in possession of a rare opportunity: that of being, for a few hours, in the presence of one of the greatest minds in Jiu-Jitsu.To my susprise, Rickson chose his own house as the place of the interview, and, to my even greater surprise, showed the simplicity that only the great masters possess. He treated me so well that I never felt like a reporter at all, but instead like a family member. He showed me the quiet neighbor where he's been living for the past ten years, told me priceless stories, we discussed Jiu-Jitsu and had lunch together. As Luca pointed out, my mission wound up occurring in the fashion of the big interviews of magazines such as Playboy: in two days, we had more than six hours of chat, many drafts and several tape rolls � except I used a digital recorder.

The interview took place on a big rug at the Gracies', with a great view of the Santa Monica sea for a witness. And there I was, recorder on one hand, pen and paper on the other, and zero experience, performing my very first interview with the one and only Rickson Gracie, one of Jiu-Jitsu's greatest living legends. So many scenes of historical fights were running trough my mind! I wanted to ask so much! If I went on asking, and if Rickson didn't have to pack for a trip to Japan, it would be possible to give readers at least a thousand interviews.The result is here for the reader to evaluate it. In my opinion it turned out really cool, and I even think there was no way it could be otherwise, for everything Rickson says is pervaded with content, roots and philosophy. That interview was above all a great lesson of Jiu-Jitsu and life. And it reminded me of the second time I met Rickson: it was in the first Jiu-Jitsu Pan-American, where he showed up and made the championship stop. All the kids ran to take pictures with their idol, and there I was in the middle. To this day I keep my picture, very similar to the one above.

What motivated you into challenging yourself and organizing something entirely new like Budo Challenge?

First I would like to thank you for this visit. It's a pleasure to speak through you to all the readers of Gracie Mag about this event that fills me with joy. This is a moment I could call historical to all of us martial arts lovers. The challenge is to retrieve the feeling that a martial art, whatever its form, can always be beneficial to the human being, in a complete way. The challenge is to create an event that can take the sport to another level of valorization. All who love martial arts will doubtlessly enjoy Budo Challenge.

Was there any particular reason for the tournament to take place in 2005?

This isn't something that came from scrap and began today; it's rather a movement that's been in my mind for a long time. I've been pondering on the need to bring back the benefits of martial arts. A martial art is something you have to learn very young to practise, become an efficient person, learn to use strategy, technique, the condition of being able to breathe and maintain a certain balance. This whole philosophy of the martial art that makes a warrior incorporate a potential is nowadays mellowing with the current MMA standpoint. When we began to build MMA it was simply with the idea of promoting the clash among styles. We believed in Jiu-Jitsu and thought it could do well against boxing, karate, capoeira, judo and any other style. With the evolution of MMA, everybody trains a bit of everything, which puts an end to the clash of styles; it's rather a clash of individuals who are each time more explosive, stronger, with a time limit that's each time shorter. All that ensues the challenge between individuals, instead of technique against technique. This makes martial arts philosophy get somewhat lost.

What kind of results do you expect to reach with this event?

The concept of is that of bringing professionalism into the sport with the gi on. Its goal is to valorize and dignify the lives of the professionals who love the sport. I think we don't need to go elsewhere to become respected professionals, maintain our families. Teaching class, which has evidently always been a noble profession, isn't every super-athlete's choice of how to make a living. And if many athletes attain their independence by playing tennis, football, basketball or any other sport, how come we can't get there by fighting with the gi? That's what Budo Challenge is all about. MMA has in a way started to professionalize athletes, but it's become too much of a show, too aggressive, violent, and distanced itself from the values I deem necessary and that are out there to inform and make our communities better.

And what about the new rules? What did you have in mind when you sat down to formulate them?

I wanted in the first place to create a competition where all sorts of grapplers could face one another; gather, in one event, Jiu-Jitsu, sambo, wrestling... Budo Challenge is a new sport! I think in the future there will great technical exchange going on among those athletes, because they will have to study a bit of everything in order to perfect themselves and become Budo champions. And that will be good for the gi-sports. The creation of the rules was a lot easier than I had imagined. I took away all that stalls the fights, like advantages or too many points for attaining a certain position. Submission attempts are worth a lot more than achieving positions. Submissions are considered not only at the time of the fight, but also in the overall calculation, which generates the yearly ranking. In my opinion, the beauty of the gi-sport is in the submission, in the vast variety of technical possibilities. With the gi on you have a lot more possibilities of submitting, sweeping, taking down, controlling your foe... Because you have a lot more grip options. Thus I reached my goal: fights had much moving going on and technique came out � you only have to see that the percentage of submissions was very high. Most fights ended in that fashion. This technical advantage gi has over no-gi was something that made me choose a gi-on competition right away.

And how will this yearly ranking be made?

There will be a great worldwide circuit like in many sports, like surfing or volleyball. My goal is to hold rounds around the globe, where the points are counted and rise according to the aggressiveness of the athlete's performance. For example: winning a fight for disqualification or points will grant the athlete half the points he would make if he submitted the opponent, say 100 against 200. Which in the overall count of the circuit might make a big difference in deciding who is to be world champion. Submission must, thus, be valorized! When you train in the academy, to test yourself, the preoccupation of winning by two points, for an advantage or by achieving a position � that preoccupation isn't present, your training doesn't stop there. That is simply a transition from one position to another and so on, until you get to your real goal � submission. The technically better fighter is the one who forces the other one to tap out. That is something that comes from the very roots of Jiu-Jitsu.

How many athletes will this ranking feature?

In this first edition the divisions featured four fighters per weight class. After the success of the first event we are expanding our ideas, and we are raising that number as well as the amount of weight classes. Another important point: In Budo Challenge all competitors get a money prize. From the guy who lost in round one to the champion. It's the valorization of our profession, and that's something I'm not willing to give up. There is also the possibility of crating a women's category, which is another important part of the sport and has been gaining a lot of room. The technical level of women is constantly evolving.

You don't like entering the ring wearing a gi, after all you feel MMA is not a gi-on sport. Were you ever against Royce's fighting with the gi at the UFC?

That's a personal question. I really like my gi-less performance, after all, based on what I believe in, even if I have less technical options, the technical options that can be developed without the gi are also good. Proof of this is that the ADCC champions, who are really good fighters, come mostly from gi-on arts. On the other hand, fighting with the gi you can have a little more grip in order to act on your opponent's mistakes. But it's a personal choice more than anything else.

[LWPD]

Continued

Concerning mixed martial arts, after an interview a few readers thought you criticized the technical level of today's fighters, that in your opinion that level was sinking. How do you compare today's athletes with the ones of yours?

I don't think the level of the athletes is sinking. I see the time of the fights being diminished, that the athletic part of athletes is more and more involved with hard training, sometimes even steroids. So people become super-men, super-strong, super-aggressive, super-explosive, and all that energy added to the low time limit reduces the need of showing technique. You have to be a bull, to get in there and win with your horns, not with your mind. So this natural development of the sport makes technique be left aside a little bit. This makes fighters level themselves down, because the sport no longer demands them to pay attention to detail. If you take off the gi and go into a five minute bout where you can use all your strength at once, nonstop... Why even bother about detail, technical carefulness? What you need are muscles! Besides, all styles got mixed up, there is no more style versus style, the athlete has a basic notion of how to defend because, in general, defending is a lot easier than attacking, so all you have to do is explode and resist for five minutes. So most fight finales nowadays end up being sudden knockouts. You don't see as often a technique, a triangle, a back-taking. It all becomes sort of void of technique.

In your bouts we never saw you make a mistake, being knocked down. And what about in trainings? Have you ever been KO'd or something like it?

No. Because in fighting or training I endeavor not to confront my opponent and give him the opportunities to checkmate me, that is, the submission or the right distance for a trauma. So, even though I train loosely, I try not to let opportunities appear � which is but a technical notion. It's not a question of fighting fiercely every time you train. You must be aware of the distance and remain in a zone comfortable for you.

So, in your opinion, in order to become a great m.m.a. champion a fighter doesn't really need violent training?

I think not. At first look, I don't see any great m.m.a fighter who doesn't have a good knowledge of ground game. I think that is the main condition. But if you have good ground game and still aren't able to enter a striker's guard then you're lost anyway, because these days those guys are throwing punches very efficiently. Standing, you must know how to neutralize your foe. I don't need to beat him standing, to punch him. You must know the rough way towards neutralizing a striker and bringing down to the ground. So it's about the whole combination: knowing how to break your opponent's fortress, bring him into your own in a way he can't defend, and then settle the business.You say you don't see any m.m.a. champion who doesn't know their ground game.

Wanderlei Silva is a great champion at Pride. Do you think he is a great ground fighter?

I think he fulfils his needs. He must know how to defend on the ground, not to let the win slip, and then defeat everyone standing � which he does very often. He is very strong standing, he's got a heavy hand, he is very brave and survives on the ground, because there is no one slick enough to make him give down on the canvas. And even good Jiu-Jitsu practitioners aren't able to take him down.

How did you face his challenge, for the Pride belt?

I see that, for his being valiant and having attained and outstanding position, he has the need of always being ready to fight. It is no news to me that he is ready to challenge me, or that he is ready to face anyone else. The things any champions says are intended to defend them or show their intention of fighting whomever they deem a profitable opponent. In reality I don't think Wanderlei is in a position to think he is the best. To me, regardless of my adversary, I would only like to have a good promotion and take part in a good event. I'm just hanging out and waiting to see what comes along.

You've said you deem the zenith of your life to be defending your values in a ring. Would you be disappointed to end your career without one last fight?

I see the possibility of me fighting still exists, though it's not certain, and I still believe one more bout would be the finale I would like to give my career. Although I know I've got nothing to prove, I feel there's something amiss. But on the other hand, if God doesn't give me this opportunity, I feel I should keep my life attached to martial arts with interesting things such as Budo Challenge and other projects yet to come.

What was your toughest bout? Was it the first one against Zulu?

Yes, it was the toughest because I was fighting not only my opponent, but my own limits as well. I thought I had no condition of winning, I doubted my own skills. But dad and my brother Rolls came up to me and told me: "Go up there, because now it's the closing." And it truly was! So it was the most difficult fight in my life, for I was facing my own doubt. Ever since, I lost that indecision, which made all the difference. Remembering the combat, right in the beginning he came onto my legs and I was fortunate to land a knee-strike right on his mouth. In my na�vety at the time, I thought I had won the fight right then. But he simply shook his head and came onto me again. I was very impressed, he had just lost a tooth... We resumed from there and it was a fight where I used up all my physical and technical potential.

This fight with Zulu happened back in 1980 and you already had the knee-strike amongst your resources. How was your training for becoming a complete fighter?

My training, especially concerning traumatism, has always focused on self-defense. That is, the ability of capitalizing upon the room the opponent gives you, by using traumatism, head-strikes, knee-strikes and elbow-strikes in order to defend and attain space. And that comes from everyday self-defense training. It wasn't something I did to practice standup striking. I would practice self-defense where the guy would attack and I, with a good base, would create opportunities to use my moves: a knee-strike, an elbow-strike, a knee-strike... But always focusing on self-defense.

[LWPD]

Conclusion

So, using you as an example we might say that all that's necessary in m.m.a. or a self-defense situation on the street is already in the Jiu-Jitsu program?

Definitely. In terms of efficiency BJJ is the art that focuses the most on self-defense. So much that nowadays there isn't an m.m.a. fighter who doesn't know the basics of that art, who doesn't at least know how to survive on the ground. Even if they are a striking specialist.

Therefore, you never had to go to muay thai academy, or a wrestling academy?

The fundamentals of self-defense present in Jiu-Jitsu give you a clear notion of how to deal with your foe's specialty. I'm no great boxer, but I have deep knowledge of how to clinch, how to avoid the right distance for punches. I'm no great kicker either, but I know what a guy needs to kick me. Strikers must have a certain gentlemen's agreement to stay in that distance, for otherwise the referee stops the bout. That's evident, so my specialty is precisely not to give a striker whatever it is they need in order to strike me.You mentioned Rolls' name, and where I was raised he is a hero.

How did he influence your career?

Rolls was a support, a foundation to my Jiu-Jitsu. He always supported me in training, taught me all he could and motivated me into competing. He was always an example of commitment with Jiu-Jitsu, with the codes of honor and discipline that every warrior must possess. He was my elder brother. And he left us a little too soon, but for all the respect I have for him, regardless of technique and training, he will always stand above me on the podium.

Who would you point out as the greatest influences in the fighter you've become?

My father and my brothers Rolls and Rorion. On the level of technical and philosophical influence these three stand out. Many more have taken part in my growth � training mates, relatives, friends... I thank them a lot too, but that is a much larger package... There were trainings at home, in the garage, the academy; cousins, uncles... It was an entire life breathing Jiu-Jitsu. But those three were the greatest influences.Kron is certainly a great promise.

How complicated is it to teach a son?

Of course it is complicated, because I can't let my expectations alter his reality, stop him from living his own life. Kron is a person starting to experience the fact of bearing the Jiu-Jitsu banner, something he has to adapt to, and if it's God's wish that will be something he will deal with very naturally. I think my role in all of it is to support him in every way. But never pressure him into thinking he must have good results to please me: he must be glad in pleasing himself and trying his best.Ever since you were very little, you've always demonstrated much content of ideas and philosophy in your interviews.

If you were to point out the biggest defect of Jiu-Jitsu instructors around, would you pick the technical traits or the need of and ideology and a philosophy behind the lessons?

Man, I've always seen martial arts as a complex thing, which doesn't only teach you how to hit the other person. Thus, the martial artist's life is to serve! It is to help, to be a person who participates in the community. The martial artist must be a positive person � not someone who stimulates war or confrontation. A person who, through that power, benefits the whole society. So I see my functions as a fighter and a teacher have always been alike, and in truth people sometimes distort the image of Jiu-Jitsu or of martial arts by thinking that the knockout or the win are the only goals. Once you learn how to view the martial art as a whole, you learn how to handle defeat, how to forgive your foe, how to be patient and balanced, how to apologize as sincerely as you struggle. These are things you learn in the academy and take to your life. You must also learn that the weakest person in the academy is the one who needs the most help, for that is the student who'll be the most gratifying to teach. Sometimes, in the midst of all this information, teachers forget a lot and restrict themselves to teaching the guy to win tournaments and being tough.

And you did take that philosophy into the rings. I've seen you state, before fights, that you didn't want to beat the hell out of anyone. I remember seeing positions where you could hit a totally unprotected man but waited for the submission. Is there still room for that kind of fighter in today's mixed martial arts?

There is, of course. With a superior, clean victory, you show you are a noble man. You are violent only when you need; when you don't, it's utterly unnecessary. You don't need to kill a mosquito with a .45 shot. So, if you have to use violence to create a space at a certain moment of the fight, okay. Otherwise, you can be almost gentle: submit and get to the very same goal.

Do you think Jiu-Jitsu still has to prove anything else?

I think we have established a position of complete superiority, in terms of styles, when compared to any other martial art on the planet. Jiu-Jitsu has its roots in efficiency. The other styles are great sports, like wrestling, boxing, judo, but the rules take away the conception of self-defense that, in Jiu-Jitsu, exists in a very basic way.Today, something rather mystical has been created around you.

What do you think of fans wanting to see you back in the rings, pretty much demanding a return from you? Do you feel annoyed or disrespected with anything?

No. I strive always, more than anything else, to thank God for placing me in this position, and try consonantly to give back � to society, to my family, my friends and my students. I try to live every day without the expectation of having to fight, having to win, of having the obligation of doing something. I try to lead my everyday life with a lot of respect towards everyone, and the constant will of helping people. When I have a day where I feel I've done something good to people and myself, that's a happy day for me. And I'm always waiting for the next one.

[Darth Turkish]

Great Post!
Thanks, Paint!

He raises some good points, especially when he mentions the lessening of technique in mma fights. I see this as more prevelant in the UFC than Pride though: I think they restart way too fast.

The Budo Challenge sounds cool. I will definately be interested to see it.

[LWPD]

Rickson has always been an excellent statesman and Good Will Ambassador for his family's art. In public appearances he has always been intelligent and articulate in presenting a coherent philosophy behind his beliefs. While I may not agree with everything he says, I respect and enjoy his insights.

I remember how tragic it was when Rickson's son Rockson died in that motorcycle accident. He was only 19. If you ever watched the Choke Documentary you could see how genuinely close the family was and what a good father and strong bond he developed with the kids. Very unfortunate.

Like Watching Paint Dry (who admires how Rickson carries himself as an educated gentleman and found his comments regarding Rockson's death as inspirational)

"Rockson is my loving son. Needless to say, his death was an extraordinarily big shock. Since then, I have been trying to spend a lot of time with my family. I have done it for four months. What I should do now is to protect my family, because I could endure that incident more easily than other family members did, my wife, and daughters, and my other son.

I am a warrior. I understand that there is victory and defeat, and life and death in fights, and in life. And I can accept that Rockson's short life is finished and he has ascended to heaven. But for my family members, it was an intolerable sorrow. Still now, I spend time with them, and I want to do anything I can do for them. I want to pray for the repose of Rockson's soul with them.

I want to see off his start for the new life with hope. I don't want to consider Rockson's death just an unhappy incident, rather we want to take it as a motivation to make our life better. We are in the middle of that process. I naturally grieved over my son's death. I can't express in words what it was like. But this incident is nothing rare. As long as life is going on, various kinds of things will happen to us. We have to take and accept them. It is not allowed to us to just stay in a sorrow without doing anything. Many of our friends poured their love on me and my family. They also prayed for the peace of Rockson's soul. I am grateful for what they did for us. And I'm glad that I myself could accept this reality. The sorrow was beyond words. But what is most important is to look at the positive side, not just to grieve over the incident."

-Rickson Gracie