Shamrock vs. Tito

[pikemojo]

I just wanted to get some other people's opinions on this match coming up in a few months. I am really excited. I think Shamrock has some life left in him and would love to see him KO or submit Ortiz.
Also what do you guys think of what they will be able to do as coaches? I think Shamrock will do a great job and I am really unsure of Ortiz. One thing though, I am sure there will be heat between the two during the show.

[pistonhurricane]

id worry about Tank, then Tito.

[habbalah]

pikemojo said:

I just wanted to get some other people's opinions on this match coming up in a few months. I am really excited. I think Shamrock has some life left in him and would love to see him KO or submit Ortiz.
Also what do you guys think of what they will be able to do as coaches? I think Shamrock will do a great job and I am really unsure of Ortiz. One thing though, I am sure there will be heat between the two during the show.

I had to remind myself I wasn't in Suredog and I have to respect everyone thoughts here (must not talk trash about Shamrock... must resist over whelming hatred)
First and I do mean first poor Tito has to get through Forrest Griffon, then he'll be fighting Ken (i beleive ?).
Ken has a chance. Tito's been out of the game for a while and who knows maybe Ken will step up his game. Maybe Tito will take him lightly. But subcioncessly I wouldn't be suprised if it was finished up in the first to second round by Tito. I'll be the first one to eat be humbled if Ken can pull this out.

[pikemojo]

Feel free to share your real opinions about Shamrock. I am curious why it is you don't like him. The unspoken rule (I guess) is that you can criticize the fighter/wrestler but don't let it turn into a fight between two people if that made sense. Basically respect each others opinions.

[habbalah]

Heh well for one if you need a recent example (and I find recent examples are the best) His arrogance. Going into his fight with Pride (I'll say it) super star Sakuraba in his promo he talked all kinds of smack and how he was going to Kick Sakuraba's butt (saw the promo at Sherdog) and the only fight they really showed with Ken figthing is where he won against Otska, to build him they showed him beating a tin can like Alexender Otska over and over again.. and then lossing to Don Fyre... that's pretty bad if in a build up for a match they have to show one of your matches where you lost.. Beating Otska does not a legend make (yes I know he's done more it just made him look bad to show him beating only one guy).
When Sak layed Ken out all Ken did was whine and talk about how he got screwed. That my friend.. is just barely the tip of the ice berg while I loath Ken Shamrock. I didn't see the match but I saw the picture where he was kind out on the ropes. I don't have a hard time picturing Ken lossing to a quality fighter soo I'm inclined to think poorely of Ken.

The only time I ever really gained respect for Ken was his fight with Rich ace Franklin. He was a real class act when he lost.. remained polite and respectful. and pretty much said "Look the company has to go with a winner, " I liked that. He looked bummed out but he seemed with his last moments to give Ace the proverberial rub from an old Pro. And then he came back.. that's his own business but look where it got him. I remember him talking about how he was going to come back wayyyyyyyyy back in the day and set Hoyce gracie striaght in the ring in there rematch, and well he never really did that. He has a nack for righting verbal checks his a$$ can't cash. I think the man honestly beleives he's the greatest thing to happen to mma. He's the hulk hogan of Mixed martial arts I'll certainly give him that. He seemed to get in his head a while back he was going to step up to the plate and silence Tito way back when.. and well we all know what happened there. I always heard so much about Ken and always saw so little. Hell Hoyce made him look like a B**** the first time they fought. Now he's getting older and time isn't catching up with him.. it already has. I get offended to no end when people make the remark Ken and Randy should have a fight then both retire. As if Ken is fit to be in the same ring as Randy. Ken's last victory was to Kimo, which don't get me wrong Kimo was fighting about as good as he ever has, but I mean so? I'm annoyed he's around only on his name now.. and he acts like he could easily be in the main event. I actaully was mortified out of my mind when Mir won the belt back in the day, I was worried Ken would get a title shot and actaully become a champ again.... good God. It just makes me sick to my stomach picturing that Pride would have Fedor as the heavy weight champ.. and we'd have Ken the can Shamrock leading the heavy weight division. It makes me want to jump out a window and slit my throat before I hit the ground. And that's just Ken.. then there's the lions den. *Breaths* I remember having a friend back in the day who went on and on about how great Wanderlai Silvia was because he beat Guy Mezger. Now.. I've made peace with the fact Wanderlai Silvia is world class. I'm cool with that and I love and enjoy his matches. But who in the Fugg is Guy mezger. Anyone worth anything beats frank mir. Hell Chuck Liddle beat Mezger. AKira shouji beat Mezger, not that I hate any of those fighters.. but I never saw the big deal about Mezger. In Fact I'm predicting no one who's coached by Ken on this years ultimate fighter will go on to do anything significant. Winning is a habit, and so is lossing (vince lambardi) I can see Ken's habbit's rubbing off on others.. (Vernon Tiger white, Guy Mezger, Tra T.men).
The lions den doesn't hold a cample to team quest, militech, brazillion top team, Chute Box achademy, or (dare I say it) Even Hammer house.

[pikemojo]

Well like I said in another post I am a fairly new MMA fan so I haven't seen the amount of fights that you have. Like I said I will respect your opinion and in time I will be able to form my own more accurately. For now though I like Ken and Tito and Randy and Chuck. I like most fighters. The only ones that I don't really like are the ones that don't show respect for the sport.
I never get ppvs so what I have seen is from the dvds that I have bought. I have 9 Pride events and 8 UFC events and 2 King of the Cage events ( I know, I know). I love it. I love the punches, kicks, the ground and pound, the submissions, and the massive amounts of other skills that go into MMA.

[habbalah]

It's oaky everyone trys king of the cage at least once. And hay who knows.. Maybe Ken will win, against Tito. It could happen. Then they can have a rubber match later on, and Ken will get to be on top one last time. Maybe if and when it happens I'll be a good sport, forget I hate him and jump on his band wagon, (but taint likely to happen Mcgee even if he does do all that.).

[Darth Turkish]

I have to agree with Habbalah on Ken in that I am no big fan. Ken was very successful early on, basically when no one else really knew the MMA game. Sure he racked up some wins, against a few good opponents, but that was ten years ago. I have a great deal of respect for him as a fighter and for helping build MMA as a sport, but he is becoming more of a sideshow now. He has used his status well for promotion, went and made his money in the WWF (remember he started out as a prowrestler), and then turned back to MMA . He is mainly used as a name to put people in seats. But recent examples of losses show something is not clicking with him ( in the Franklin fight, he tried two high kicks- Why? His bread and butter is on the ground. Then when he was knocked down, Franklin hit him with three or four shots before he attempted to cover up. In his most recent fight, he was hit and turned his back on the guy, in Pride a sign of a KO. Why? Regardless of what was said afterward, he knew the rules and should not have done that). Kenny's best days are certainly behind him.
I dislike Tito also. I hate trash talkers, especially ones who cannot back it up. Tito ducked Couture, ducked Liddell, and was dominated by both when they fought. Watching 25 minutes of Randy Couture beat Tito's pompus ass was most enjoyable. I give him credit that he has victories over Wanderlei and Vitor, but he fought Silva in 2000, and Vitor has not been the same since he has come back to MMA a few years back. The best Tito match ever? Against Frank Shamrock! Tito, on his hands and knees, hugging Frank's ankle as Frank pummels him from the top. Frank ended it with a hatchet blow to the neck. I howled in laughter when I first saw that!.

[habbalah]

Hay thank Frank Shamrock fight was solid, it's beyond me why Frank's never persued a rematch, he could sure use a little fame right now. Well Tito will keep things interesting if nothing else, he's the cro cop of the UFC light heavy weight division. The third best.. and there he shell remain.

[LWPD]

I remember during the Shamrock/Rich Franklin Spike Special the announcers tried to continuously sell the idea that 'the Ken Shamrock of today would beat the Ken Shamrock of the 90's. When he got knocked out in short order, it didn't help sell his legacy much in retrospect. For his time Ken was great and that's how they should realistically sell him, as a legend who still competes...not as a top tier fighter of today. It's just not realistic.

Ken has gone 1-4 in his last five fights. A case can be made that injuries were a factor, but at his age they aren't going to dissipate much as he prepares for the intensity of an upcoming fight. Cosmetically he's ripped, knows how to project himself very well and has a natural charisma that never really came out during his run with Vince. He should make for a telegenic and entertaining UFC Coach.

Tito also has a certain charisma and can be telegenic, although not to the degree that Ken is. I think he'll stomp Forest and make for a solid foil playing off of Ken throughout the TUF season. The build will be good and I can see a strong buy rate (but not a great or even good fight).

Against one another in a rematch we'll likely see a repeat of the lay and pray with Ortiz on top dominating a slow, less than exciting fight that goes the distance. Styles make for fights and Ken can't stop Tito's take downs and Tito will play it safe. Not to say that Ken can even trade with Tito, but there's no need to take any chances when his wrestling and ability to maintain top position on the ground is a given.


Like Watching Paint Dry (who enjoyed the build and execution of Shamrock/Frye and wonders what might have been had Don not heavily tapped his ankles)

[habbalah]

I'll not weep for Ken if he fails to hold of Tito's take down. Ken's been in MMA how long and for a man with such a rich legacy (I call it bs) he should have a good take down defense.. and it's not even close to Chuck Liddel's (I only say that because with Ken's experience he should eclipse Chuck).
Now.. some one answer me this... What is Ken's strength? It doesn't look like stand up... okay.. it's not grappeling....Correct me if I"m wrong... but Ken knows a few submissions.. and that's about the sum of his talent? Yeah, I know he knocked out Kimo... but That's Kimo. I'll give him credit, he did it short order and all but what does Ken have to beat Tito? Sub par striking and predictable submissions?

[Darth Turkish]

I would say he is pretty strong all around, but his main strength IS grappling. He mainly likes leglocks, which is a smart strategy becasue you see few peeple use them, and (in my experience) most people are unprepared for them and do not defend them well. I would say that he has average striking ability, but he does seem to pack a wallop. Predictable submissions is pretty accurate though. All of his opponents know he will try for a heel hook or Achilles lock. I think the question will be conditioning, as it was last Tito fight. He was too blown up.

[LWPD]

habbalah said:

Now.. some one answer me this... What is Ken's strength? It doesn't look like stand up... okay.. it's not grappeling....Correct me if I"m wrong... but Ken knows a few submissions.. and that's about the sum of his talent?

Ken Shamrock is perceived as 'better' than he actually is because he's been a smart self promoter who has strategically built his image. People pay to watch those they believe to be 'stars' and Ken has achieved that recognition in the eyes of casual observers because he came through strong early in his career and did a good job picking his spots. His legacy steam rolled from there.

If you look back at the first UFC KS was put over as a 'submission specialist trained in Japan'. Back then there was a lot of mystery surrounding all of the fighters in this newly created 'sport', but the moment he tapped out Patrick Smith a star was born. In the months that followed he received dual exposure with a major push through the Pancrase PPV's (with highly questionable outcomes).

He returned to UFC as more of a 'star' winning two fights and then pulling out before the finals (showing he was no Royce Gracie). The promotion kept building to a Royce/KS rematch as their big money match. When it finally happened in UFC 5 and the time limit rule was implemented Shamrock used the first ever 'lay and pray' strategy to finagle his way to 'victory' over a frustrated Royce.

On the following UFC's coinciding with the absence of Royce, Shamrock's status as Superfight Champion filled an important void. The PPV numbers peaked for the Royce and Severn victories and the gates were strong. His title defenses against Severn, Oleg and Kimo enhanced his marketing status as the 'World's Most Dangerous Man'.

The rematch with Severn at UFC 9 in Detroit was a major moment with a crowd of 11,000 drawing their highest live gate ever. With their moment in the spotlight far removed from the Indian reservations, neither fighter engaged as they stalled for 30 minutes. Shamrock lost his title and UFC buy rates plummeted (although Senator McCain's political chicanery had a little something to do with that as well).

That was his peak as a fighter. He would do the WWF run with Vince and to his credit came in as an instant star. He never won a UFC tournament but he defeated many of the top tier fighters of his time. He did submit Smith (Ankle Lock) Severn (Guillotine) and Kimo (Knee Bar) at a time most guys didn't know the counters. He has been an effective draw for his 'return appearances' and does know how to promote himself, his Lions Den fighters and the shows he works. He's accomplished this both here and in Japan, which is something few 'better' fighters have been able to do.

He's a mixed bag. He was effective for his time and made the most of his breaks. Today he draws off his image, which makes him seem larger than the sum of his parts as a fighter. He's not at the level of the top fighters in any facet of the game whether it be standing, clinching, on top, guard work, submissions, etc. The caliber of skill displayed by the fighters today is light years beyond what the first UFC fighters were able to bring to the table back in Ken's hey day. Yet that's only to be expected as the knowledge/skill base evolves in any endeavor.

In the end it's a business so more power to him for making money out of a gig that he helped to build up.


Like Watching Paint Dry (who wouldn't mind seeing a Royce/Shamrock rematch just for old times sake)