Creative Board Moderation

[Like Watching Paint Dry]

*I extend my apologies for posting this in the wrong section....but alas 'guests' can not post in the Board Issues and Suggestions Forum. I invite a moderator to move the thread to it's appropriate postion.*

EDIT by Chris: Done, although I'm not sure if you'll be able to respond now. I'm not changing the permissions here.

I have a question regarding my recent experience with creative 'moderation' on the following thread:

WWE Forum Topic: Is it just me, or . . . .

On that thread after I had contributed substantial 'on topic' content two posters under the handles of 'OK Enough Guys' and 'Also' launched into off topic personal comments toward myself and another poster. This was not just my impression but the impression of another poster (which is documented by 'intact' thread content). I responded with a post that was labeled as 'professional and polite' by a third party registered poster. Upon returning to the board I was most surprised to find my 'polite' response toward _TWO_ off topic flames deleted...while these two initial flame posts remained preserved intact.

I once again posted to the thread a response, this time making note of the deletion in commentary to another poster...who then also responded making note of this most strange form of moderation...only later to find BOTH of our posts DELETED while an additional flame post by a poster under the handle 619 is added to the thread....which remains intact alongside the two initial flames in effect 'sanctioned' by the moderator.

"Strange days indeed
Most peculiar. Mama."

-John Lennon "Nobody Told Me"

To repeat this is in addition to the previous two flames which 'survived' the watchful eye of the deleting moderator. I then found myself 'banned' which I'd like to assume was a technical glitch as certainly no board moderator could possibly be so 'backward' as to ban a poster who responds to personal flames politely, Today I now find said thread 'locked' with all three personal flames preserved intact below:

cotg.proboards12.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=WWE&thread=1113882694&start=45

I invite the moderator who engaged in this process of strategical deleting response posts (by myself and others) to personal flames while at the _SAME TIME_ preserving the initial off topic flames (as noted by third party posters) to publicly step forward, identify him/herself and explain their actions.

I also invite said moderator (or perhaps another innocent of the process) to either remove the noted flames in said thread or unlock the thread and allow me the courtesy of a polite response. Either one of the two actions would meet with my satisfaction.

Like Watching Paint Dry (who's most 'intrigued' by the creative moderation he's experienced)

[Swarm]

Paint, by no means by what I am about to say do I intend to get into any kind of disagreement, debate or otherwise with you.

But from my personal experiances, I would have to say this: Lye in the bed you make for yourself.

By no means am I, or ever have I been, the moderators, and others, favorite poster. But I (like you) say what I think. I was banned once. So be it. I asked for it. I knew what I was doing as I'm sure you know what you are doing too.

To be honest, those "flames", imo, are nearly accurate. You are kind of a jerk. You do put people down. You are smug. You have a superiority complex. It is all very obvious.

Maybe that's why those "flames" (how the truth is a flame I don't know) are allowed to remain. Maybe to kind of teach you a lesson.

Regardless of what you think, you are not always right.
Maybe in facts you are, but you treat others on here like they are idiots for even thinking about possibly disagreeing with what you write.

You have a ton of helpful and usefull information. You obviously know your stuff. But it's the putting down of others you so often can't help but place in-between your "contributions" that can and do offend people.

Asking a moderator to "publicy" come forward to "please" you is lame (even more so when no one, well almost no one, knows who you really are).

Let it go, and learn from this. If you act like a dick, your eventually going to be called on it...

Again, you provide a lot of good stuff. Stick with that.

Just my opinion.

[ringsyde]

Well, LWPD's not always factually accurate either. However, I hate the fact that what is subject for deletion on this board was once clearly defined (profanity, insults, and harrassment), but that definition is rarely ever followed.

I also hate the idea that someone "makes their bed" on this board. It's a fan discussion board about a card game featuring a broad array of personalities and attitudes. LWPD represents one real-life attitude.

Since everyone's gut reaction is usually to either steer clear of LWPD or praise him for his diction and knowledge, it seems his "tude" was an accepted part of this community. Now that a few unfair jabs have put him in the position that the mods have (in-effect) gagged him, everyone wants to speak their piece. Most of these people have never engaged him in debate (last check, Chris Ingersoll, myself and Tommy Brownell carried on lengthy debates about wrestling books, women's wrestling business and ratings trends, respectively), and the feeling I got was that they feared being washed under the LWPD fact-laiden, verbal tidal wave.

While I've often had trouble with many of the things you've said, LWPD (because they are at times abrasive, high-minded or in some cases not very well substantiated), I respect who you are (or try to be), and I'm truly bothered that a couple of people got a few cheap shots in and you could not exercise your (until recently) normal routine of verbally leveling the field. I sincerely hope you don't take this "know your place" attitude to heart, because that's NOT who you are.

We're not buddies - some days I'm not even sure we're even respectfully disagreeing - but I personally like your perspective, I understand your wit and depth, and I think that if you are wrong for either, the best response is to engage you in discussion (or debate) like mature, intelligent people do. No bible-thumping or rights reviews here. Just the opinion of a fellow contributor that this unfair incident will only be worse if you cowtow to the wrong advice. Be more humble and more polite where you have to, but don't change or lose your passion.

[Chris Ingersoll]

RingsYde said:

However, I hate the fact that what is subject for deletion on this board was once clearly defined (profanity, insults, and harrassment), but that definition is rarely ever followed.

Although it isn't explicitly mentioned, the fourth category for deletion is "irrelevant". Usually this is a harmless clean-up category that includes things like double-posts, but it also sometimes results in deleting otherwise innocent posts when one of the offensive ones has been removed.

For example, if someone posted a clearly inflamatory post toward another and a third party innocently quoted it for reply, both the offensive post and the reply would be removed. The first for the obvious reasons, and the second because it's basically a repeat of something we didn't want to see in the first place.

Having not seen the posts in question, I really can't comment on this specific incident. But those are the criteria I've always used when I feel the need to exert some moderation on a thread, no matter what my personal involvement in the discussion might have been. I've never removed posts that simply (or complicatedly, to make up a word to decribe LWPD's response style) disagreed with me, nor will I.

EDIT: Having now browsed the thread, I think the reason that the two guest posts ("Ok" and "also") were kept intact was a judgement call on the mod who (presumably) deleted the rest and locked the thread. Personally, I wouldn't call them insulting so much as they were a ham-handed attempt to tame some egos, although I'll be quick to admit that the difference is basically semantics.

[floydthebarber]

I was on the other end of a heated discussion some months ago with LWPD, and I decided there and then to just try and ignore him. While I’ve said before that a lot of what LWPD says is valid and offers a perspective not offered by others, he is virtually impossible to debate with. Yes, his arguments are thought out and detailed, and yes he has the right to post his opinions...but the problem is that he simply does not allow others to make points without exhaustively and meticulously attempting to break them down, point by point, (often with nothing more than his own opinion) while talking down and intentionally slamming the other opinion. If this was coming from a respected expert, using factual info, I'm sure a lot more people would be more accepting of him.

I also hate the idea that someone "makes their bed" on this board. It's a fan discussion board about a card game featuring a broad array of personalities and attitudes. LWPD represents one real-life attitude. It seems his "tude" was an accepted part of this community.

Everyone is responsible for their actions, and if said actions result in angering people, then he, and you, have to live with it. Yes, it is true...his 'tude' was an accepted part of this board...but much like a cancer patient comes to accept that they have this disease in their body. There came a point a while ago where every time I saw a LWPD post, I just rolled my eyes, attempted to see his perspective, and lost interest about 1/4 of the way through after reading the same stuff I read the last time he posted.

Heated discussion and different opinions are one thing...but what LWPD does borders on insulting and just plain silly. This desire to 'educate' the less informed is simply a desire to make himself feel 'big', and as can clearly be seen in his posts, LWPD holds many on this board in contempt simply because he thinks they aren't as smart as him or don't 'want' to see things his way.

I think it also says a lot that Swarm has something to say about LWPD...as he too was someone who often got in peoples faces, but who's opinion was still received with a certain measure of respect...and now that he's decided to not be so confrontational, and decided that he doesn't have to always be 'right', he's not ruffling the same feathers he used to.

LWPD opinion is valid and valued, it the tone and the ridiculous need to have the final say that rubs people the wrong way...myself included. I pride myself on being able to see both sides of the story, and in this instance I have done my best, but in the end, LWPD's mouth has written a lot of bad cheques...and now his butt is paying for it.

[ringsyde]

Thanks for the clarification, Chris; although an argument can still be made that every post that was not jermaine to the discussion of Hogan/Michaels -vs- Hassan/Davairi could be deemed "irrelevant", and removed from the thread. As you mentioned earlier, some of this decision making falls into the realm of semantics, so I wont split hairs here.

Floyd, I guess I never really looked at LWPD's posts that way. To me, he's always come across as someone who will drag out a discussion (okay, let's get real here; a frickin' DEBATE) for as long as there are people to argue with. In every debate he's had on this board - and there are many - once a person decided the point was moot, he went away. That's generally how you handle unwanted commentary in almost any situation.

I've wondered if (he's) really being condescending when he posts, or if he's just trying to create and maintain a "Vic Venom" style character that we're supposed to react to and "get" at the same time. Either way, he keeps things interesting. I guess my years of retail sales, teaching, and being one of the original a$$holes on the old guestbook have made me tolerant (or ignorant) of some things. Oh well; T'would seem a dead issue.

Telling a person to "lie in the bed (he) made" only after he runs afoul seems condescending. Isn't that what everyone's problem with LWPD is?

Asking him to adjust his attitude, respect other opinions and curb his lexicon seems to fit in better with the "Community" aspect that I assumed this board (the OFFICIAL COTG board, by the way) was trying to promote. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Chris Ingersoll]

RingsYde said:

I've wondered if (he's) really being condescending when he posts, or if he's just trying to create and maintain a "Vic Venom" style character that we're supposed to react to and "get" at the same time.

This is always an area where I get into trouble when I get into debates online: there's no way to reliably indicate the intended tone and inflection of someone's message short of emoticons that are so overused that they've essentially lost all relevant meaning. Often people would pick up a "holier-than-thou" from my responses that I never had in my head when typing them. Things like sarcasm can usually be picked up if it's thick enough, but the distinction between "I think you're missing this point" and "how can you be such a moron" can be very tricky indeed.

[Mark 138]

I can't help but find this seriously amusing. I didn't read the offending posts, but nothing I've ever seen out of Like Watching... has ever been particularly "polite". In fact, his abrasive posts, rudeness towards other board members, and generally arrogant tone seem to be the main reason those calls for unregistered guests not being allowed to post come up every now and again. Now he's appealing to the moderators because one of his posts got deleted. In other words, he can't get the last word(for once) and it's eating him alive. I've seen this guy come back to the same topics and run them into the ground long after everyone else has lost interest just so no one else got the last word. Wow, the irony.

[floydthebarber]

I agree with Storm Rider 100%. Anyone who can't see that LWPD is rude, abrasive and arrogant is blind, or just doesn't want to see it.

Telling a person to "lie in the bed (he) made" only after he runs afoul seems condescending. Isn't that what everyone's problem with LWPD is?

Ringside, your missing the point. LWPD hasn't just suddenly, one time, 'run afoul'...this has been building up for a while now. Certainly there wouldn't be this kind of debate if this was a first time occurance. The fact that your insinuating that were being condescending is ridiculous, and insulting to be honest. Why are you defending him?
Turning this back on us makes me suspicious...

Chris, you make a good point...but like I said in my last post, if you decide to write 'in character', and claim 'ignorance' at how your posts come off...then your certainly open to criticism and ill will being directed your way. Claiming that you didn't think your were being condescending might fly once in a while, but when you constantly are p***ing people off, then its time you take a look in the mirror and stop trying to pin all the 'hostility' on others...

[ringsyde]

Suspicious of what, might I ask? That . . . . I'm LWPD? Hardly. Everyone needs an advocate, and as I also mentioned, I think you're falling for his gimmick. I've always felt LWPD is someone who got tossed off of this board or the old guestbook, either got a new computer or a new desire to interact with this group and created the drab "Like Watching Paint Dry" persona to disguise himself and make fun of people at the same time. Remeber, watching paint dry equates to being bored, and that's where the schtick starts. Also, keep in mind that he (or she) posts an aweful lot for someone who refuses to register as a member.

Floyd, if you need to be reassured, I'm sure one of the mods can give you my IP# and LWPD's so you can see the regional differences in our locations. If you think I'm accusing you of something . . .then you're RIGHT. Again, I think you and everyone else who LWPD's offended has fallen for the oldest gimmick in debate; giving power to irrelovence by honoring it with a reaction.

It's RingsYde,by the way, and I'm far from blind. From the sounds of things, I may be the only one with clear vision in this matter.

Hey . . .anyone notice who's been missing from this discussion? You think maybe we're all stroking his ego with this thread right now? It does make one wonder . . . .

[Mark 138]

No one's stroking anything here. That will surely get you banned! Seriously, it looks like someone has taken the ability for non-members to post on this forum again.

I don't care if someone is making a poor attempt at role-playing, or some half-hearted Al Franken stab at satire, or whatever the situation. This isn't an e-fed and the forums aren't a roleplay board. I'm failry certain most of us are here to simply join in online discussions on topics of mutual interest, not to be bit players in someone's attempt to be the Eddie Elner of the Filsinger Games forums. And if the posts are truly indicitive of the actual attitude of the poster, then I'd rather see he or she stand behind what they write, rather than hide behind the anonimity of being a non-member and then basically whining when they aren't afforded the same freedom on the forums as registered users (such as being able to take part in discussions on the "Board Issues and Suggestions" forum).

[ringsyde]

I can't argue with your position, Storm Rider. Too bad that membership isn't a necessary part of the posting process. I wonder how much fat would get cut if the moderators had a valid e-mail address and IP regsitration on file to counter any B.S.? Again, I can't really argue your points.

[floydthebarber]

RingsYde...if you've found a kindred spirit in LWPD, or ARE him...I don't know and really don't care. We're not in grade 6, so there is no need for documented proof. If you want to defend him/yourself/it...fine. Just don't insult my intelligence by saying I'm 'falling' for some gimmick. Why not just say what you really mean? I think we all know LWPD likes to play games, gets his 'little man's joy' from posting ad nausium when prompted, throwing personal jabs under the radar and getting the last word (whatever that proves). If it is some 'gimmick'...good for him, he's impressed one person.

But from my vantage point, LWPD's history speaks for itself.

I still think the COTG board should be an open forum...and just like LWPD has the right to say what he wants, and cast aside others opinions...I have the right, and the choice to ignore his...which is what I will be doing from now on. I hope that others who feel the same way will follow my example and not give LWPD his 'satisfaction'. If a man takes a dump in the woods, but there is nobody around to see it, does it still smell?

Again, I think you and everyone else who LWPD's offended has fallen for the oldest gimmick in debate; giving power to irrelovence by honoring it with a reaction.

And sometimes if it walks like a jerk, talks like a jerk and acts like a jerk...

From the sounds of things, I may be the only one with clear vision in this matter.

Don't flatter yourself...LWPD does enough of that for the both of you...hell, he does enough of that for the whole board.

[ringsyde]

Look, I'm not going to further alienate myself on this board by trying to shed a different light on a subject, so I'll make a few more simple points and be done with this:

- Some of you are very vocal here because you feel you have a point to make. Where was this passion months ago when LWPD was putting people in such a fowl mood? Again, very few people on this board appear to have ever stood their ground with him. Please spare me the "I ignored him because I'm not going to play his game" argument. This thread proves some can't ever ignore a chance to predominate (and insult and belittle and you get the idea)

- I don't think I ever said I was impressed with ANYTHING LWPD has done here. I simply recognize what he's done and have had a few private chuckles when I saw how his whisper thin deception (which should've fooled no one) was praised as "you make good points" or some other pandering that betrays the hatred that everyone now displays.

-Some of you are just angry - angry for his existence and intrusion into your community, angry that anyone would say "He's a gimmick and he's had his fun so get over it", and angry that anyone would challenge what I guess is supposed to be a universal hatred of something (I think racism, sexism, and all the other evils of the world all began as an assumption that a thing was universlally hated)

- If the passion coming out of this thread has been there all along, why (oh WHY) did no one try to improve this situation sooner? Tell a moderator, cut more of his posts, make him register as a member if his posts exceed a certain length or number (which I still think would have ended the problem some time ago) or simply start your own board and invite only the people you want to be there (NOTE: I started an MSN board months ago, and when it malfunctioned, I recently started a yahoo group - I have pics, updates, gaming news and a few friends there, and it's where I go when I want to be in control for a while).

Floyd, I sincerely hope we can move beyond this perceived attack on your intelligence. However, trust me when I say that I don't need to flatter myself. I have a wall full of degrees, 5 classrooms full of children, my own business and brilliant and beautiful child that serve to flatter, humble and at times even humiliate me on a daily basis. I really don't need the fickle whimsy of an electronic community to embolden myself.

At this point, I'm done. Please feel free to respond as I suspect you will invariably see fit to do.

Steven L. "RingsYde" Williams

[floydthebarber]

This the last time I'll speak on this too.

People are being vocal now because we've held our tounges for months, and have finally seen the dam break so to speak. Is there some sort of 'ethics' rule book for confronting internet posters your not fond of. People didn't say anything before, for the same reason you feel the need to 'clear the air' about not wanting to alienate yourself...nobody wants to cause a problem. Most of us sit there and read LWPD, and think, 'its just me, right?...am I the only one who thinks he's being a jerk. You don't want to be the one who says something, only to be attacked for 'attacking' LWPD.

Angry is not the right word...that would be giving him much more credit then he deserves. Frustrated is a better word...I'm an adult too...so I don't get angry at faceless people I don't know posting nonesense for the sake of stiring up sh**. Like most adults, I just take a deep breath, and tell myself he's not worth it...most of the time...but this time, I decided that I wanted to vent, so I vented. Was that not the right way to go about it? Did I misstep?

Floyd, I sincerely hope we can move beyond this perceived attack on your intelligence. However, trust me when I say that I don't need to flatter myself. I have a wall full of degrees, 5 classrooms full of children, my own business and brilliant and beautiful child that serve to flatter, humble and at times even humiliate me on a daily basis. I really don't need the fickle whimsy of an electronic community to embolden myself.

Great...good for you, this changes what I think about you, our discussion or LWPD how? WHY is it that whenever there is a 'debate'/argument on this board, people always try to end things by talking about how they are bigger than anything said on this board, how they can spend hours posing on a message board, only to belittle the whole exchange as 'fickly whimsy'? Who are you trying to convince? THATS why people can't debate or choose not to debate with LWPD, and why things get dead in here for weeks at a time...chances are if you post something, anything on here with some sort of opinion, it'll meet with resistence, mocking and overall bad feelings...and who the hell wants that when all they want to do is talk about wrestling?

I enjoy playing COTG, talking about it from time to time, as well as talking about the WWE...thats it. I could do without a lot of what this 'community' has to offer, which is what I'm going to do from now on.

I'm afraid some people on this board just come off as arrogant, stuborn and lacking the courtesy to talk to people as if they're equals. I'm sure people are going to say its just me...or that I'm guilty of this as well (you just can't win with some people), so to that end I say...maybe it is...I'll be the bad guy, so in that case I'll just stick to playing the game and talking to the one or two people on this board who I actually enjoy hearing from...

[ringsyde]

After reading LWPD's rants on the other thread, this is the message I sent to Floyd the Barber. I will share it here because, frankly, big daddy has seen the light!!

Floyd, I SO APOLOGIZE. I only recently found out that LWPD has been on the WWE board b*&ching and moaning. You know, you try to give the little guy the benefit of the doubt. After reading his voyage into condescention and stupidity, what can I say? You guys are right; he's an a$$!

I owe you an apology, and I hope you don't mind me also posting this on the board.

Clearly, some of this was changed due to (ahem) four-letter content. I really was trying to be the guy's advocate because I thought he got a raw deal and a pile-on at the same time.

I love this board so much because, much like good religion, even the most misplaced of good intentions are often rectified. Contrary to what may have been assumed, I have not and will not willingly belittle or insult you guys because, as this proves, I learn WAAAAY to much from you to alienate you.

Sorry Floyd and all involved; the guy insists on being a cretin (yeah, I know, but cretin's about as polite as I can say without suffering some severe editing of my own).

[Chris Ingersoll]

For the record, the reason guests aren't allowed to post in this specific forum is because... well, they're guests. Do you put up with strangers coming into your house and complaining about your furniture? Does the tourist with the "visitor" badge get to add his two cents to how the company should be run? This forum is one of the only two functional "perks" that registered members get, the other being the ability to send/receive private messages -- which, as I mentioned in the other thread, is where/how this sort of issue should be handled (as a couple of you have).

[LWPD]

RingsYde said:

the feeling I got was that they feared being washed under the LWPD fact-laiden, verbal tidal wave.

While I've often had trouble with many of the things you've said, LWPD (because they are at times abrasive, high-minded or in some cases not very well substantiated), I respect who you are (or try to be), and I'm truly bothered that a couple of people got a few cheap shots in and you could not exercise your (until recently) normal routine of verbally leveling the field. I sincerely hope you don't take this "know your place" attitude to heart, because that's NOT who you are.

For issues of personal convenience I have decided to register as a member. I can assure you however, there will be _ABSOLUTELY_ no changes in established tone, content or style in my contributions here. In other words the 'paint' will not be 'thinned out' or 'watered down' so to speak.

This thread has served the purpose I intended and I now invite the moderator to close it.

Like Watching Paint Dry (thoroughly satisfied and entertained) ;D

"Straighten' the curves....Flatten' the hills
Well someday the mountain might get them...
But the law never will!"

-Waylon Jennings 'Dukes of Hazard Theme'