RIFTS.

[GalactiKing]

Fire and Brimstone Preachers rock.

[KevinW]

I played rifts for a while on and of with some friends. I played a Cyber Knight(which barely survived having a block of C4 put on his armor), a Hunter Cat( Dm tried like CRAZY to kill him-never managed to do it) a Psi-tech(whose FIRST and ONLY mission was against Gargoyles-wasn't killed but was about as effective as a gnat against a Brick wall) and a Dracanoid/Mind Melter/Smoker (never DID find specific Smoker Magic). Which also brings up a question: did anyone who played a Ley Line walker or a Mage character of some kind find the variety of Spells lacking-especially for combat?

[bmurderh8s]

The LeyLine Walker is basically the RIFTS equivalent of a Mage. They draw their power from the laylines. I tried to create one once and I have to say, it's probably one of the most complicated to create.

I wanted to name him Levy Rah of Demon City Shinjuku fame.

[Splattercat]

kevinw said:

I played rifts for a while on and of with some friends. I played a Cyber Knight(which barely survived having a block of C4 put on his armor), a Hunter Cat( Dm tried like CRAZY to kill him-never managed to do it) a Psi-tech(whose FIRST and ONLY mission was against Gargoyles-wasn't killed but was about as effective as a gnat against a Brick wall) and a Dracanoid/Mind Melter/Smoker (never DID find specific Smoker Magic). Which also brings up a question: did anyone who played a Ley Line walker or a Mage character of some kind find the variety of Spells lacking-especially for combat?

Hmm...I would suppose it depends on your definition of Lacking...A Ley Line Walker will be hard pressed to beat out a Full conversion borg for damage output...Alongside that Borg, The Ley Line Walker can pull off some pretty ridiculous assists, even at level 1...

Check this out...You and your Borg buddy are stalking a dozen CS soldiers on patrol...You find a nice place to ambush them, then use Simple Invisibility so you can move about unseen...You walk behind them and cause a distraction (like, throw a rock, make some noise...They all turn around to see what the noise is...You cast Carpet of Adhesion under their feet and bail...They are now stuck facing your direction for 2D6 melee rounds if the MAKE their saving throw...That gives your Borg friend 10-60 attacks with his big railgun to shoot them in the back...

You know, if you have an effective enough crew, say add a juicer, or even someone in Light Power Armour you can do the exact same tactic against a UAR-1 Enforcer...It can't rotate it's body all the way around, so if it's feet are stuck to the ground, the others jump out from behind it, leap on top of it, bust into the pilot's compartment, fire two shots, and all of a sudden, we have a 28 million credit robot with minimal damage....

All this from one little level 4 spell...

[GalactiKing]

Unlike DND, Mages aren't raw damage dealers, but their versatility helps quite a bit.

[Splattercat]

Also unlike D&D, Invisible Mages can attack, cast, shoot etc...Heck, a Titan Ley line Walker with his 5D6 MD punches can turn invisible and beat the holy hell out of that UAR-1 Enforcer and no-one would have a clue what was wailing on it (barring certain sensors)....

You also have to consider that D&D mages are severely limited by the weapons/armour they're allowed to use...Ley Line Walkers, aren't as restricted...So the D&D magic may have more damage output than the Ley line Walker, but throw that Ley Line walker in Light MD Body Armour, and give him a Heavy Plasma Cannon and we'll see who does more killing (in their respective environs of course)...Plus, turn them both invisible and see which is more effective...

[bmurderh8s]

splattercat said:

Also unlike D&D, Invisible Mages can attack, cast, shoot etc...Heck, a Titan Ley line Walker with his 5D6 MD punches can turn invisible and beat the holy hell out of that UAR-1 Enforcer and no-one would have a clue what was wailing on it (barring certain sensors)....

You also have to consider that D&D mages are severely limited by the weapons/armour they're allowed to use...Ley Line Walkers, aren't as restricted...So the D&D magic may have more damage output than the Ley line Walker, but throw that Ley Line walker in Light MD Body Armour, and give him a Heavy Plasma Cannon and we'll see who does more killing (in their respective environs of course)...Plus, turn them both invisible and see which is more effective...

With 2nd edition D&D the experience chart for the Mage was outrageous. It would take forever to lvl up your character. They changed that with 3rd edition, which was actually my biggest pet peeve. I thought different classes should have different experience tables. Kinda killed a bit of the individuality. I don't have the book in front of me, but I assume lvling up a Ley Line Walker is a bit of a task.

[Splattercat]

Line Walkers require slightly more than average Xp...Average being 2000 to 2nd level, Line walkers (and Mind Melters) need 2240...From the main book, that's 3rd highest (Way behind Dragon and slightly behind Techno Wizard)...So not too bad....

[sickman]

Wow, reading about all of this has made me jones for a rifts fix

I always thought that they should have made a RIFTS RPG or MMO. It may even be in the works; however I doubt it. But the possibilities would have been endless with a game of that sort.

[canadianpittbull]

Well I too am thinking of reliving past glory and running this again. The subject matter is too good to pass up even if the system can be stubborn at times. BUT I would take it over D20 anytime, especially when it comes to the old school first printing of The Palladium Fantasy RPG....D&D pales in comparison to this gem.

[KevinW]

yes,ley line walkers could get a gun and blast the blazes or become a titan and pound the ehck but, that defeats the purpose, IMO. If you wanted a charcter who who could do that, there were other templates, but I pictured Like D&D that a Ley Line Walker should have fairly strong offensive magic. Even when they put out Federation of Magic, the class was still lacking in damage output via pure magic. yes, you can turn invisible, use carpet of adhesion., wear heavy armor and use any kind of weapon but so can most other O.C.C's to one degree or another. If you wanted to rely on guns, why be a ley line walker in the first place? You'd be betetr off playing a techno-wizard and recharge your guns with magic.

[bmurderh8s]

I always thought D&D limited Mages so badly that it made it hard to actually use one in a campaign, especially at the lower levels. You'd freqiently find yourslef dead, or close to it. Now once you got to the higher levels you would be a beast...but it was a hassel getting there. I'm more of a fighter/Paladin (Blackguards are awesome) type dude myself. I always found the guys who played wizards or sorcerers were uber geeks.

Why couldn't a Ley Lie Walker have the ability to wield a gun? A gun is a fairly general weapon, and a Ley Line walker's main ability is his use of ley line magic anyway. The gun is primarily a sidearm.

And BTW, Mage's in D&D could pick up the ability to use a sword..which is basically D&D's equivalent of a gun.

RIFTS is way less dorky and way more violent and bloody.

[Splattercat]

Pretty much your only option with a sword-wielding wizard/sorcerer is making an elf...not going to find many that would waste a feat just to wield a single type of sword...

There's nothing saying a Ley Line Walker HAS to use guns and armour, but if you can, why not..? The world of rifts is FAR more deadly than D&D...Putting an unarmed/unarmoured ley Line Walker against a Coalition Grunt is pretty much the same as putting a level 1 Wizard vs. an adult Red Dragon...

Magic is actually really good, and they have a lot of options later on...You just have to know what you're getting into...Sure, throwing him in Armour and giving him some energy weapons may seem like he's no better than a Wilderness Scout or a Cyber Doc, but when he has spell magic at his disposal, it makes him very potent...

Should also remember that Ley Line Walkers have their magic increased by 50%-100% depending on where they are (proximity of ley lines/nexus points), and that's not even counting the time of year...Not to mention, PPE is SO abundant in the combat heavy world of Rifts...PPE doubles at the time of death, and Magic users can siphon that off quite easily...So every time you drop a CS Grunt, you get 20-30 PPE...That basically means that you don't have to worry about powering your spells like Psychics do...huge bonus there...

Anyway, I think that's all I got for right now...

[GalactiKing]

Had a lot of fun in my Rifts game. Already looking forward to the next session.

[Splattercat]

Sweet, whatcha playing..?

[KevinW]

I'm not knocking that the class has some versatitlity and if you want to use PPE to recharge a gun, then by all means, do so. get that 20 to 30 extra PPE by wiping out Grunts, and wear whatever armor you wnat. That is all well and good and gives your rifts wizard an actual better survival rate. My complaint about the class is again, the decided lack of Potent Offensive Magic. I looked over the spell selection and there was very little, in terms of pure combat magic. Even when they put out Fedeartion of Magic, the selection dinlt get much better. What they SHOULD have done is take a look at D&D and come up with their own equiavents to some of the nastier spells D*+&D had. RIFTS is supposed to be where everything is jacked up and more lethal, but it seemd to me, RIFTS comes down more on the side of the High TECH than high FANTASY.

[Splattercat]

Well, let's take a look...

level 1 ley Line Walker gets to choose spells from levels 1-4, and then barring gaining spells from elsewhere (although why would you?) he only gets level 1-4 spells until he's level 5...His choices for combat spells until then are:
Throwing Stones: 1D6 MD (+1 per level) (FoM book)
Orb of Cold: 3D6 MD (FoM book)
Electric Arc: 2D6 MD (can be used multiple times per casting)
Fireblast: 3D6 MD (hits everything along 50 ft. unless stopped) (FoM book)
Fire Bolt: 4D6 MD

Also Energy Bolt, but we're talking destructive here...So that's not too bad for a starting character...It's true that that's all he gets to rely on until level 5, but he can buy higher level spells...Barring that, however, not too bad so far...

level 5:
Mental Blast: 5D6 MD/Hit points (x2 by touch) (FoM book)

That's about it, but still, a powerful spell...

level 6:
Call Lightning: 1D6 MD per level (no save!!)
Fireball: 1D4 MD per level (dodge only 18+)
Frostblade: 4D6 MD (FoM)
Power Bolt: 5D6 MD +2 per level, (1600ft range too and requires a 20 or higher to dodge) (FoM)

Okay, now we're talking..!! Call Lightning is unavoidable, and at 6th level it's on par with most handheld weapons...Power Bolt, is almost as good, and you can use it indoors...

Level 7:
Ballistic Fire: 1D6 MD per missile (1 missile per level, never misses!!) (FoM)
Firegout: 6D6 MD +1 per level, (3 feet across, 30 ftt long per level) (FoM)
Lightblade: 1D4x10 MD +1 per level (melee only, 2x dmg to light vulnerable things like Vampires) (FoM)
Sonic Blast: 4D6 MD 20ft radius (harsh penalties as well) (FoM)
Spinning Blades: 2D6 per blade (1 blade, +1 per level, various effects) (FoM)
Sub Particle Acceleration: 1D6x10 MD +1 per level,

Okay, now we're getting huge damage...

Level 8:
Lightning Arc: 4D6 MD +2 per level (lasts a while and can be used multiple times) (FoM)
Sorcerous Fury: 2D4x10 MD (per attack/melee, plus makes him a freakin' monster for a time) (FoM)

I could stop there...The spells are pretty harsh at this point...But...Here's some later ones:

Dessicate the Supernatural: 3D6x10 MD (against supernatural only)
Dragon Fire: 1D4x10 MD (twice per melee for a time)
Meteor: 1D6x10 MD +2 per level, 40 ft radius)
Annhilate: 2D4x100 MD

So yeah, it takes until level 14 to equal Long Range missiles, but really, what PC ever uses Long Range missiles anyway..? Beyond that, waiting until level 6 may be a drag, but once you get there, 6D6 MD unavoidable..? Guns/technology with any amount of longevity (i.e. more than 10 shots, and doesn't cost a fortune to replace) very rarely exceeds 1D6x10 anyway, and as I said with the absorbing PPE from dead enemies, Magic users basically have a payload of "Effectively Unlimited" for most of their spells...

From what I see, the Federation of Magic book did it's job quite admirably..

[GalactiKing]

I'm an Atlantean Undead Slayer. My wife is playing a Crazy(and very well)

[KevinW]

hmm...don't recall seeing soem of those leve 6 spells but looking at it, from my perspective, your seeing a max of about at BEST 24to 60 MD(whihc is believing you gets 6 on all rol rolls) before the higher levels and if THAT is the best you can do againt things that have HUNDREDS of MD (mecha,Gargoyles, etc ...) that doesn't seem imprressive. You talk about level 6 but you have to LIVE to see level 6. The list has some fairly impressive spells but again, only one or two of the spells you listed is a match for some of the equipment that the P.C's were carrying that I ran around with, much less what the enemy wielded. Those spells are fine if your facing standard issue soliders and things with maybe 200 or less Md in main body alone. Anything more and once again, your relegated to essentially shooting a hand gun at Godzilla.

[Splattercat]

You don't have to be level 6 to use those spells....Read the section on The Pursuit of Magic...A level 1 ley Line Walker can cast level 7 spells, provided he has the PPE to do it (which he will)...

Another thing to consider is that you have to carry guns...Guns take up space, and can weigh a lot (like rail guns which weigh hundreds of pounds)...What happens if your gun gets damaged..? Or you have to go somewhere that you can't use them..? Mages have 4D6 MD attacks with them 24/7...

Also, unless all your characters are running around with Railguns and unlimited ammo, 24-60 MD is pretty much the most you can hope for...There aren't a lot of weapons that do 2D6x10 MD, besides missiles (Which cost a fortune)...The C-27 Heavy Plasma Cannon does 6D6 MD but only has 10 shots per E-clip...the NG Particle beam Cannon does 1D4x10 but only has 8 shots...I think the Plasma Ejector in Sourcebook One has 15 shots, and there are lots of pulse rifles that have maybe 20 or 30 bursts, but I'm not sure they do much more damage...

So unless you're talking giant robots, I think you're asking too much of your group in terms of damage output...