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Post by Chewey on Apr 24, 2006 21:06:54 GMT -5
I don't have a whole lot of confidence in ECW being that successful for reasons that I have not heard anyone talk about yet... Vince won't let his product be upstaged by Paul Heyman whether it is promoted under the WWE umbrella or not.
Paul Heyman is a great booker, and if he were truly launching a third promotion with solid financial backing he could probably cripple TNA, but I doubt Vince will give ECW a chance to be more successful or consistently more entertaining than Raw/Smackdown, even if it makes him money. Vince has too much pride to allow for that to happen, and I do imagine that WWE would poach all of ECW's top talent if Vince felt that ECW was becoming "too" successful, much like Smackdown's top stars usually get moved over to Raw every year.
But that may be the plan anyway, I've heard that with ECW coming back that it may mean the end of OVW. Or at least ECW replaces OVW.
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 24, 2006 21:08:16 GMT -5
Yeah, they want the old school southern Jerry Jarrett/Bill Watts style of wrestling there. Though I heard Tommy Dreamer was the real disaster as a booker. Wow..I didn't know there was still a market for dusty finishes, matches with no top-rope moves, and no pushes for anyone except the bookers' best friends and relatives. Honestly, it doesn't matter what Louisevill wants. The OVW is WWE's triple A affiliate. Paul Heyman is supposed to help them prepare for being called up to the WWE; the national product places a premium on characters and promos, and developing that part of a performer is Heyman's strength. So if they give Heyman complete control, they'll find an audience. Most reports have the show being taped before Smackdown and then syndicated, possibly as a replacement for the Saturday Raw show. Heyman's done enough good stuff in the past that I'm willing to wait and see on this. |
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Post by Mad Dog on Apr 24, 2006 21:10:46 GMT -5
The WWF has no control over what OVW does actually. And it's generally not a good idea to crap all over fans that have supported a product for nearly a decade now.
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 24, 2006 21:23:15 GMT -5
The WWF has no control over what OVW does actually. And it's generally not a good idea to crap all over fans that have supported a product for nearly a decade now. C'mon..you don't honestly believe the WWE has 'no say' over OVW? It's their feeder program...most of the staff are assigned by WWE...all of the talent who gets pushed also happen to have WWE contracts waiting for them.....that's a little naive don't you think? you don't think the WWE has some say in whats going on down there? And I'm not saying they should crap all over the fans. But clearly OVW has dual priorities. entertain their fans, but they also have to prepare talent for their call-up. And when guys like Batista and John Cena were doing radio interviews where they said that OVW did nothing to get them ready to speak in front of live audiences, and guys like Chris Masters and Shelton Benjamin were fairly incoherent their first months in the WWE, something had to change. If a major league baseball team calls up a player from their farm system, they expect the player to have mastered thier fundamentals. Eveeryone learns through experience, but the point of a farm system is to teach the basics. I love Cornette and he's got a wonderful booking mind. His involvement inthe ROH/CZW storyline has been gold. ASnd there is an audience for the 'good ol' days' booking, but it's ben about 20 years since it worked on a national level. |
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 24, 2006 22:34:46 GMT -5
To be honest Pure, they (the WWE) don't have a lot of say so in story lines, character development, etc. They want the guys to be able to learn to work in front of a crowd and in a sense, the WWE style of wrestling. But they do leave the rest of it to the OVW trainers/owners, etc (Danny Davis and whomever else)
I'm friends with Trudi DeNucci, who wrestled there, and she's told me the same thing first hand. But even more funny was about the workers in OVW....shhh..
She actually said most of the guys she still talks with don't care about Heyman's booking and his weaselly attitude (like he'll tell you something to your face and go straight behind your back with another). They think the booking is hectic and is more of the MTV bam bam right now and not as thought out.
But with Cornette, most everyone loved him, even with his abrasive attitude. He tried to plot out story lines that would be drawn out over time and while Cornette can have a temper, at least you knew where you stood with him...he would be honest in everyway. If you sucked, he'd tell you. If it was great, he'd say so.
But don't underestimate the fans. Danny Davis was a good worker in this region over the years and he's had his school here since 93-94 and it keeps chugging along. Many of those fans have been going there since he opened up and are fiercely loyal.
But a couple of things you are wrong with in typecasting (Southern/Memphis fans).
1) The Dusty finish. That finish was only used when someone like Bockwinkel came in to defend the AWA World Title. Jarretts/Lawlers style of booking was having the huge new heel come in and beat the champ. Have the babyface chase the champ and in the blowoff, the babyface regains the title...sending the heel packing.
2) Top rope maneuvers. Well, I do agree with that assessment...although you must not watch Doane, Jeter, and some others. Danny Davis was not the most high flying person, but was quick and agile (I guess kinda like Vertigo). But he has always incorporated any high flyers in. Flash Flannagan had a good push here for years and he was a big risk taker.
3) No pushes for anyone except the bookers' best friends and relatives. I agree with that somewhat, but what area didn't push their kid (except Eddie Graham). And they all push their friends. Now, if you want to complain about Jeff Jarrett getting his push back in the late 80s/early 90s, then I agree with you 100%. He really didn't get over big until way after his debut. Plus, Jerry Jarrett was always looked upon hypocritical due to the fact that he left Nick Gulas' company to start his own promotion in the Memphis (Louisville, Evansville) area due to Gulas pushing his son George hard (George Gulas is universally considered the worst wrestler in the history of the sport).
Gulas was booking the east end of the territory and Jarrett the west. Jarrett's area was on fire, but Gulas' was suffering due to him putting George on top. George wanted to work the western end of the territory because, since everyone was paid by the house show gate, there was more $$$ on the western end. Jarrett refused, which led to him breaking away from Gulas. So you are right about the bookers son on Jarrett's part. But in all honesty, what area didn't push their relatives/friends?!?!?
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 24, 2006 22:36:45 GMT -5
Actually Cena got a lot of mic work here along with Rico when they were tag teaming...Kenny Bolin was their manager. He was the Prototype then and did a fine job on the mic.
Batista, I can understand that frustration, but whether or not it was right, his gimmick was not to talk.
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 24, 2006 22:50:31 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into a debate about the Memphis/Southern style vs other regions. you;'re right in that everyone favored their friends and relatives, but other than that, all I have to say is that I've seen a good amount of Memphis shows and I honestly thought they were all pretty bad. They're campy, but not in a fun, Lucha Va Voom way. more like an "I'm embarassed to be a wrestling fan" way.
And like I said, I know Cornette is talents. And I know from the interviews I've read with people that worked for him that Heyman has a really disorgainnzed and crash TV style of writing.
But my over-all point is that that old-school style of booking doesn't translate well to working the kind of shows WWE is putting on. Heyman's style translates better, so it seems like there'd be a smoother transition. WWE may or may not have zero say on what OVW does, but it is their development territory and it make ssense that they would share a more cohesive booking style.
I like old school I appreciate that kind of booking. That style isn't happening on the main shows.
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 24, 2006 22:55:08 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into a debate about the Memphis/Southern style vs other regions. you;'re right in that everyone favored their friends and relatives, but other than that, all I have to say is that I've seen a good amount of Memphis shows and I honestly thought they were all pretty bad. They're campy, but not in a fun, Lucha Va Voom way. more like an "I'm embarassed to be a wrestling fan" way. Oh come on Pure, you don't appreciate the Christmas Creature?!?!?! Or Freddie??? Or Darth Vader?? Or Dr. Frank!?!? ;D |
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Post by Joe on Apr 24, 2006 23:02:51 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into a debate about the Memphis/Southern style vs other regions. you;'re right in that everyone favored their friends and relatives, but other than that, all I have to say is that I've seen a good amount of Memphis shows and I honestly thought they were all pretty bad. They're campy, but not in a fun, Lucha Va Voom way. more like an "I'm embarassed to be a wrestling fan" way. Oh come on Pure, you don't appreciate the Christmas Creature?!?!?! Or Freddie??? Or Darth Vader?? Or Dr. Frank!?!? ;D Don't forget about Lord Humongous, Fire & Flame and Cowabunga! I'm glad you brought up the Christmas Creature, though, so I didn't have to! Seriously, there has been a lot of good performers come out of the Memphis area, but I do agree with what Pure Hatred said about the way many of the gimmicks and storylines could come across when shown to a national audience. |
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 24, 2006 23:06:03 GMT -5
Yeah..the Christmas Creature was the one that made me want to pack it in. I beleive I also saw a Lord Humongous...he was dressed like the main villain in the first Road warrior movie? I might be wrong.
But, hey, I go to a lot of Pro Wrestling Guerrilla shows. So what do I know?
And to his credit, Cornette is perfect for ROH. His run might be the most entertaining the company has evcer been.
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Post by Mad Dog on Apr 24, 2006 23:06:57 GMT -5
The WWF/OVW relationship is essentially the same as the TNA/NJPW relationship. The WWF provides OVW with talent and that's about it.
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Post by Joe on Apr 24, 2006 23:09:00 GMT -5
Yeah..the Christmas Creature was the one that made me want to pack it in. I beleive I also saw a Lord Humongous...he was dressed like the main villain in the first Road warrior movie? I might be wrong. But, hey, I go to a lot of Pro Wrestling Guerrilla shows. So what do I know? And to his credit, Cornette is perfect for ROH. His run might be the most entertaining the company has evcer been. That was Humongous, running around looking like Mad Max's arch-enemy. If I remember correctly, Humongous was actually a young Sid Vicious. |
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 24, 2006 23:16:39 GMT -5
Sid was Humongous later on. The 1st Humongous in 84 was Mike Stark and later on was played by former Louisvlle football player Jeff van Kamp. Vicious came on the scene probably in 87 with the Humongous gimmick. Just so everyone knows, the Christmas Creature is actually Joe's favorite wrestler!!!  |
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Post by Joe on Apr 25, 2006 0:17:59 GMT -5
Sid was Humongous later on. The 1st Humongous in 84 was Mike Stark and later on was played by former Louisvlle football player Jeff van Kamp. Vicious came on the scene probably in 87 with the Humongous gimmick. Just so everyone knows, the Christmas Creature is actually Joe's favorite wrestler!!! A couple years ago, when WWE did the "Kane goes crazy and piledrives Linda McMahon" angle, I was watching with my a few of my people. When Bischoff had the cops holding Kane he told them, "If that sonofabitch does anything, light him up like a Christmas tree!" or something to that effect. We were kind of loud and it sounded like he said "I'll have you go back to being the Christmas Creature." I laughed for about 15 minutes until I called my cousin and he told me what E actually said. It still hurt me, though. Actually, the Christmas Creature might be the worst gimmick in the history of pro wrestling. Seriously, anyone who saw it would certainly rate it top 3. |
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 25, 2006 0:29:14 GMT -5
And, are you surprised...Kevin Christian (aka Kevin Lawler) came up with it.
WTH is up with those Lawler and goofy horror movie guys!?!?!?
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Post by ringking on Apr 25, 2006 3:09:53 GMT -5
People have been screaming the death of TNA since the first year. I am a ECW mark so I hope the ECW thing goes well. And the whole thing about grabbing up talent. I believe I heard last year that Daniels signed for a couple of years. If you get a contract and are still binded by it. You will have to lose money to try to get the contract to not be binding anymore. And if for example Daniels gets a temper tantrum they will just suspend him or give him a belt. Either way it will show a example. Also look at the indies. Alot of ECW stars are just running around indies. Sure about a couple are in TNA as management or wrestling. But a ton are not even on TNA payroll. For example Crediable, Kronos, Saturn, Corino, and the names keep going on. Hell what about New Jack. Nobody else will take New Jack other than Heyman. And I believe Lance Storm is running around in OVW last time I checked.
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Post by Chris Ingersoll on Apr 25, 2006 9:32:52 GMT -5
As much praise as you here the smark god Heyman gets, many fans here don't care for his style, they miss the Cornette style. I find it amusing that Cornette and Heyman are still on opposite ends of a rivalry that's stretched back to the transition from Jim Crockett to WCW (Cornette, WCW hotline promo: "Even a moron like Paul E. Dangerously can remember a number like 1-900-909-9900"), even though neither man is even on camera any more. ;D |
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 25, 2006 10:36:51 GMT -5
As much praise as you here the smark god Heyman gets, many fans here don't care for his style, they miss the Cornette style. I find it amusing that Cornette and Heyman are still on opposite ends of a rivalry that's stretched back to the transition from Jim Crockett to WCW (Cornette, WCW hotline promo: "Even a moron like Paul E. Dangerously can remember a number like 1-900-909-9900"), even though neither man is even on camera any more. ;D And forgive me for not knowing the difference in context of hear and here!!!! Duhh...lol |
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Post by gwffantrav on Apr 25, 2006 10:42:48 GMT -5
And Cornette may be telling a white lie, but from all accounts, Cornette is still actually part owner of the company still with Davis, although they (the WWE) just relieved him of the day to day workings of the company even though he's still co-owner
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Post by PureHatred on Apr 25, 2006 11:27:20 GMT -5
The WWF/OVW relationship is essentially the same as the TNA/NJPW relationship. The WWF provides OVW with talent and that's about it. And Cornette may be telling a white lie, but from all accounts, Cornette is still actually part owner of the company still with Davis, although they (the WWE) just relieved him of the day to day workings of the company even though he's still co-owner All you have to do is read those two sentences to see that WWE obviously has some influence in the OVW. If it was 'just' providing talent, then the E wouldn't be able to relieve the co-owner of the company of his duties. The WWE may not control day to day activities, but they are providing all the relevant talent, the majority of the staff, and since they decide who's doing the booking then they have a say on the over-all direction of the product. Whihc is very similar to the influence that a baseball team would have over its Triple A affiliate. Not sure why its an issue to say that WWE has some influence over OVW. Is it just harde to enjoy the oVW if you know the WWE has some say? |
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