Benoit loses to Batista

[Big Bri]

This is an absolute load of crap. How can you win the World Title at WMXX, only to lose to a midcarder only 9 months later? I was shocked at Orton beating Benoit at SummerSlam, but got over it pretty fast because Orton is quite entertaining, but Batista? COME ON!!!

I like Batista and all, but IMO, it just isn't his time for a push yet. I know that WWE is just trying to make him seem a lot better than he is just to push the upcoming PPV, but at the cost of Benoit's reputation. If this happened one year later, I could accept it, as Batista will be even more over then, but even though Benoit is not the World Champion anymore, he's still held in high regard by the fans, and this just diminished his status.

Okay, the thread is open for business! Let's roll...

[Like Watching Paint Dry]

Reverse the question Big Bri and you'll find your answer. How did Chris Benoit become viewed as a viable threat to compete for the Title at WM 20? The answer is through others working hard to puelevate his status and him over. From the guys on Smackdown, to winning the Royal Rumble and everything in between leading up to the big day. Everyone worked hard to get him to the point of appearing like 'Benoit Is For Real' to the average fan (not just the hardcores who already respected him).

What Chris Benoit did last night reminded me _WHY_ I have so much respect for him as a performer. He did what he's done all his career...make another one of his fellow performers look great for the good of the company as a whole.

When it comes to Batista, everyone in the company seems to be doing their part. From the guys working squash matches, to Jericho doing stretcher jobs, to Hunter mentoring him on & off stage all year, right down to Benoit losing to him clean and making him look like a monster. It's been a team effort to turn him into a major star.

While I'm no fan of some of the things Triple H has done creatively, he deserves major credit for at least trying to help create a new star.

Here's what he said in a recent interview that gives some insight into 'why' Benoit did the job last night...and why it was the right thing to do:

Courtesy of ign.com

IGN Sports: Evolution is a cool group because there is actually meaning to it, the past, present, and future of wrestling. Was the group your idea?

Triple H: It was my initial concept and I ran it by Vince and I ran it by Flair. My initial concept was pretty much what we said on TV. I looked around and we had Ric Flair as a baby face just sitting there and not doing a whole lot, then you had myself, and I felt like Ric could be utilized better as a mentor to a younger guy who was up and coming. I felt like somebody could get the rub off of him, then the more I started thinking about it, I thought if we put together a group where we took a couple of guys and they could get a rub off of both Ric and I, and Ric could be accompanying them to the ring and become part-wrestler, part-mentor, part-manager, that this could really get big. So I ran it by Ric and he liked the idea. And when I was talking to Vince about it, he asked me what other wrestlers I wanted to do Evolution with, and I honestly didn't know. So Ric and I spent a lot of time just watching guys. Ric and I would actually watch ever match, scouting each wrestler to see who could pull this off. To me, this was an important deal because I had to pick two guys who I thought could be big stars on their own one day, otherwise we're just wasting our time.

This isn't a knock against anybody, but there are a lot of groups, and when the group folds, the guys in that group fold because they were propped up by that group. That's not what we wanted. I wanted two guys who could be stars standing on their own, we just needed to get them to that point of standing on their own, and that's what we've done. If you look at Randy Orton, it was time for him to get kicked out of the nest and try to fly on his own, so we kicked him out and he's out there flying. He's in a place where he's either going to become a huge star or he's going to hit the ground, but we got him to that point, and he got himself to that point too.

Same thing with Batista. We're going to turn Batista into a big star here, and he's working his ass off at it. And when the time is right, we'll kick him out of the nest and see how he flies. That was part of the whole thrill of doing Evolution. We took two guys who, if they would've kept doing the same things they were doing, they would've just been a couple of other guys, and it would've been hard for them to progress from that level. We literally took them out with us everywhere we went, talked business to them non-stop, and they watched matches with us, they wrestled with us, and listened to our advice. I'm not trying to take credit for where they are, they are the ones who had to put in the work, but we gave them the platform to do it from. They deserve the credit, though, because they are the ones who did it.

[jsanudo]

I find alittle flaw in your theory. If you remember corrctly, before Benoit won the Royal Rumble, he was feuding with ALBERT! Torward the end of his run on Smackdown, Benoit was just another high level midcarder (like the one thats the current WWE Champion).

[Graymar]

I'm really torn on this issue.

I have loved the development of Batista...I think he's world's better than he was even 6 month's ago.

Like Paint...I have a lot of respect for what Benoit is doing. I think it is the right thing.

The only hangup I have is this...Batista is 35...not 24 as is Orton.

The best I can tell...these are the comparable ages:

Edge - 30
Jericho - 33
HHH - 34
Benoit - 37
Michaels - 38

Again...I have enjoyed this ride with Batista...I have loved his progress...and anxiously await his confrontation with HHH. BUT...they are not creating the next young star.

My thoughts...

Graymar

[Like Watching Paint Dry]

JSanudo said:

I find alittle flaw in your theory. If you remember corrctly, before Benoit won the Royal Rumble, he was feuding with ALBERT! Torward the end of his run on Smackdown, Benoit was just another high level midcarder (like the one thats the current WWE Champion).

Actually toward the end of his Smackdown run Chris Benoit was coming off a major program with Smackdown Champion Brock Lesnar:

www.pwtorch.com/artman/publish/printer_10987.shtml

The Albert program you allude to was a soft ball series where Benoit dominated again and again as an intern program, with clean TV victories designed to get over his finisher...not a glass ceiling type deal. Albert did for Benoit what Chris and others are now doing for Batista. The Smackdown Title match was built in such a way as Benoit was positioned as a logical main event for Lesnar upon winning. Instead he got the super push (leading into and even AFTER WM20).

Graymar

Agreed on the Batista's age issue. He's not young relative to someone like a Randy Orton. Whether he's more marketable and worth investing in is a call that Vince seems to be going with. Personally from the crowd reactions he's getting it's one I support.

If it doesn't work at least you find out now and cut your loses as opposed to waiting too long before, having it work but finding him too old to be viable at the top of the card for any extended length of time. Sometimes you've just got to take a chance and roll the dice.

Time will tell.

[thefamoustommyz]

Fact is, folks in attendance were going nuts for Batista and have been for several weeks...and this hapened organically, he hasn't been force-fed down our throats (like Orton).

And it's not like Benoit got squashed. He controlled a large segment of the match and took being rammed repeatedly into an exposed buckle to lose.

Benoit is not a Gawd, and he's sure not untouchable.

As far as age: Who cares? If he's stil busting his @ss and holding up his end of the deal, I don't care if he's 50.

So long as a wrestler is over and still holding up his end of the business, age *shouldn't* matter. Batista shouldn't be punished for being 35 before he got over. He didn't gave the luxury of being friends with influential people or dating bosses daughters' before now. Batista's been on the national level, what, 3 years? Hell, Rico's over 40 and I'd happily watch him any day of the week over, say, a 20something like Maven.

Age isn't the issue. Drive, determination, performance and connecting with the fans is.

[Big Bri]

Guest-Like said:

What Chris Benoit did last night reminded me _WHY_ I have so much respect for him as a performer. He did what he's done all his career...make another one of his fellow performers look great for the good of the company as a whole.

Good point there LWPD. I knew Benoit was doing Batista a favor in a sense, but I never looked at it from a "company as a whole" standpoint. Who knows? Maybe Benoit had his "defining moment" at WMXX and there's really nothing left for him to accomplish, so now he just lives to put over newer stars? I could see him doing that.

GRAYMAR: I have also enjoyed Batista's "ride" and look forward to the eventual showdown with Triple H, but again, I just think it's too soon for all of this.

TOMMY Z: I know that Benoit isn't a Gawd, but just think back 9 months. This would not have happened, as most smart fans know that Benoit could outwrestle Batista any day; that's why the whole thing is unbelievable to me. But, as LWPD mentioned, WWE is concentrating their marketing toward the "average" fan, not hardcores like us.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I get it, but I still don't like it!!!

As long as we're kind of on the subject, what do you guys think will happen in the Elimination Chamber Match on Sunday?

I THINK that Triple H will win. I think the title was vacated simply to have the EC match to push a new PPV. Triple H will screw Orton in the end, however Orton will win the RR, and there you go...but actually, I HOPE that something crazy happens, like Y2J getting a fluke win, just to spice things up.

[Joe]

It is obvious, based on crowd response, that Batista is getting over with fans. He's even showing some personality and a decent sense of humor. Last night, I even got caught up in the match while I was sitting at home. The reason for that: Batista possess that hard to find ability to make viewers and fans suspend reality. Batista powering out of the Crossface was like watching Brock Lesnar legitimately hoist, display, and finally F-5 Big Show. It was visually spectacular and very entertaining.

Chris Benoit has that ability, too. Although the cat looks like a full-sized midget, he gives the impression that he could walk into any bar in America and kick the s--t out of the toughest guy there. He shows this in his matches by delivering some of the most realistic looking punches, chops, and kicks ever seen in a wrestling ring. Benoit deserves all the credit in the world for his success, and it is a slight to him to imply it was a team effort from the guys on SMACKDOWN. It was his ability and, for lack of a better word, aura that put him in the position to win the World title at WMXX.

I don't think Batista's age is a factor. The only person I can think of who knows Batista is 35 is Graymar. Most people I have talked to think he is much younger. That and the fact that he is a relatively young 35, by that I mean wear on his body, should keep his age from being a problem.

As far as the Elimination Chamber goes, I think that Triple H will win. He has to be the champ going into WM XXI because the company's biggest full-time star has be in the main event of the year's biggest show. Turthfully, though, I would love to see Jericho or Benoit win the belt.

[Nemecys]

While I'm hoping that Batista wins Sunday, the fact that he's going in last pretty much means he won't. I have to agree that Triple H will probably win the EC. My two other choices would be Benoit or Orton.

Prowrestling.com reported that the main events for WM21 were going to be Triple H vs. Orton and JBL vs. Cena. If so, this will go down as the first WM that I don't care about. I'm really hoping they push someone else at the last minute into the top spot. I'm so tired of seeing either Triple H or Orton in nearly every top match.

Jay

[Graymar]

Joe

My point on the age wasn't that Batista looks 35...just that he will have a much shorter 'shelf life' than a 20 y/o. BTW: his age is on his 'official' website. While WWE doesn't normally promote ages...Batista hasn't done anything to hide it.

TommyZ

Age isn't a factor here. There is a lot of talk about WWE 'growing new stars'. I think that Orton/Benjamin is an examople of that. I think there are others like Batista where the crowd have reacted very well to and are enjoying a good push. I don't think that Batista's push is undeserved...but I wanted to put it in context.

BigBri

As to the original subject...I think HHH's victory two Monday's ago over Benjamin is more disdainful than Benoit's loss. They have been building Benjamin into a future star. They have given him a couple of victories over HHH. These victories have grown him in the eyes of teh fans. I don't have a problem with HHH defeating Benjamin...but just with the quickness in which he did. I think that loss did more to hurt Benjamin than the Batista loss hurt Benoit.

Great discussion guys.

Graymar

[Kreaton]

Nothing wrong with the Batista win here. If he were beaten by Benoit, no one would buy him as a viable contender to the world title in the Elimination Chamber. This was the whole point. Batista needed that one big win to push him to the upper tier where he needed to be and it was justified.

By the way, Batista's recent push is the best kind of push, b/c it was demanded by the fans, not by Vince or anyone else. Randy Orton is supposed to be the new star, but I think Batista is taking that away from him. Remember back in the 90's, it was Ron Simmons that was supposed to be the new big star, but along came the Rock. I believe we're seeing this again with the big man, although there will never be another Rock.

[Wildfire at work]

I've been enjoying the Batista push... especially his HHH promos.. the $100 thing on Raw was awesome.

I would like to see Batista turn face after the PPV and hook back up with Orton, and HHH and Flair get some new cronies (Maven definately, and maybe Snitsky)

I think that it has the makings of the next big feud, especially if you throw Benoit and Jericho in the mix.

-- Wildfire

[Joe]

I often find myself thinking how 'so and so' lost to 'so and so', now his momentum is snuffed out and people will never see him as a legit top-of-the-card performer, but then reality sinks in. I would estimate that at least 95% of wrestling fans are aware that the match results are predetermined. Keeping that in mind, most people realize that who wins and who loses is really irrelevant once a person hits a certian stage and are only concerned with who entertains them. Case in point: Chris Jericho. They guy has dropped big matches to almost everybody worth a darn on the RAW roster, but his status is basically unaffected.

While Shelton Benjamin is noy yet at the level of Jericho, I doubt the loss to Triple H did anything to hurt his career. Hell, he's beaten him twice already, is the I-C champ and will probably look very good against Maven at the upcoming PPV.

Not to say that I don't care who wins and loses, because that is definitely not the case, but I don't see Shelton Benjamin as any less of a future superstar based on his loss to "The Game".

[Joe]

Guest-Wildfire said:

I would like to see Batista turn face after the PPV and hook back up with Orton, and HHH and Flair get some new cronies (Maven definately, and maybe Snitsky)

I think that it has the makings of the next big feud, especially if you throw Benoit and Jericho in the mix.

-- Wildfire

Does anyone really want to see Flair explaining Space Mountain, limos, jets, and how to kiss the girls and make them cry to Gene Snitsky? Flair might be a miracle worker, but even he might not be able to turn this clown into a star.

[Wildfire at Home]

I don't know... Snitsky has a sort of Adam West campy kind of charm...and Flair is the man.. it could work

Besides, if HHH is going to be the big bad boss of the villians, he needs a thug.. who else but Snitsky would fit the bill if they turn Batista?

-- Wildfire

[Graymar]

That's a nice idea, Wildfire!

Graymar

[Tournament Master]

The obvious finish to the Elimination Chamber this Sunday would be Triple H beating Randy Orton in the final fall, with Randy going onto win the Royal Rumble as the youngest winner ever (blah, blah, blah). Although those of us in the New York area have seen the promos for a Madison Square Graden card in February, with a Main Event of HHH vs. Orton vs. Basita triple threat. This would lead me to believe that HHH and Batista have a falling out in the EC this Sunday.

So my prediction is that its HHH, Batista and Orton as the final 3. They eliminate Orton and HHH asks Batista to lay down. But instead he beats the crap out of an exhausted HHH and wins the title, only to drop it back to HHH at the Royal Rumble, where Orton wins the Rumble to get the ME at WMXXI.

[Wildfire at Home]

Graymar said:

That's a nice idea, Wildfire!

Graymar

Thanks Feel free to give Mr. McMahon my number

-- Wildfire

[Wildfire at Home]

I think that Batista has to be involved in the finish at the PPV, or these last few weeks will have been completely wasted.

Assuming they want Orton/HHH for Mania, I think that Batista is going to elimate HHH, and either Benoit or Jericho will get the title....

I think (or hope really) that someone beside HHH needs to be champ for a bit, but I think its too soon for a substanttial run for Orton.. so we need a transitional champ ( I suppose it could be Edge too, but I just hate the new whiny persona, so I just can't condone it)

This way you can have either Batista or another of the young guys (maybe Maven or Shelton Benjamin) in a title program as a dual main event. with the Orton/HHH match.

That's my .02 anyway

-- Wildfire

[Swarm]

I'm expecting Shawn Micheals to swerve Batista and superkick him. HHH wins the title and is re-united with Shawn w/ Flair.

Batista wins the RR 3 weeks later.

HHH succesfully defends the belt vs. Edge at RR when Micheals costs Edge the match, setting up HBK v. Edge at WM.