Havoc

[sharkbowl]

...

[jefft]

Kind of a 'behind the scenes' bad boy....cocky heel. Yep...good comparison. Except Orton didn't used to resemble a hermaphrodite.

[sharkbowl]

So...for the 4 people who voted NO...did you notice he pretty much has Orton's exact move set and is about the same in height and weight?

[GalactiKing]

I definitely see the resemblence. Also the inability to win against top level guys....

[dbfnq]

sharkbowl said:

So...for the 4 people who voted NO...did you notice he pretty much has Orton's exact move set and is about the same in height and weight?

Wow, it's as if you never left.

On-topic, I don't see the similarity. 6ft2in and 252lbs is pretty average for wrestlers, maybe a little on the short side; it's exactly the listed height and weight for Austin. Orton is listed as 6ft4in and 245lbs...exactly the same as Malkuth.

And the moveset is mostly Generic Wrestler Man. Dropkick, suplex, DDT, powerslam, clothesline, sleeper hold. There are a couple of Orton's sig moves in there - chinlock, uppercut and neckbreaker - but not the big ones. I don't recall Orton being a big proponent of the enzuigiri, springboard DDT or Unprettier.

[sharkbowl]

dbfnq said:

sharkbowl said:

So...for the 4 people who voted NO...did you notice he pretty much has Orton's exact move set and is about the same in height and weight?

Wow, it's as if you never left.

On-topic, I don't see the similarity. 6ft2in and 252lbs is pretty average for wrestlers, maybe a little on the short side; it's exactly the listed height and weight for Austin. Orton is listed as 6ft4in and 245lbs...exactly the same as Malkuth.

And the moveset is mostly Generic Wrestler Man. Dropkick, suplex, DDT, powerslam, clothesline, sleeper hold. There are a couple of Orton's sig moves in there - chinlock, uppercut and neckbreaker - but not the big ones. I don't recall Orton being a big proponent of the enzuigiri, springboard DDT or Unprettier.

Well let's see. if you are reading the handbook, you'll see the Gothic Tomb Spike is the move Orton has been killing people with where he drapes them across the ropes and DDT's them...and his finsiher is not the Unprettier not sure where you got that from. Also not sure where you got "springboard DDT" from? Do you even have 2122 yet?

Also, Dropkick, suplex, DDT, powerslam, clothesline, sleeper hold are all moves Orton uses. Enziguri was kept because it was a move used by Havoc before. FALLEN DREAMS can also easily be seen as the RKO as it is a "falling face driver."

In short, Havoc was designed based on Orton, whether or not you see it, which is the point of the thread. I see it. I love it.

Strong.

[dbfnq]

sharkbowl said:

Well let's see. if you are reading the handbook, you'll see the Gothic Tomb Spike is the move Orton has been killing people with where he drapes them across the ropes and DDT's them

I'm not calling you a liar, but none of the recent write-ups I've read have even mentioned this move. They've been too busy selling the Dreaded Kick To The Head.

sharkbowl said:

...and his finsiher is not the Unprettier not sure where you got that from.

"Reverse double underhook drop". Sounds like the Unprettier, or something very similar, to me.

sharkbowl said:

Also not sure where you got "springboard DDT" from? Do you even have 2122 yet?

Yes, but this was from 2119. The old Gothic Tomb was a springboard reverse DDT. Havoc is more of a high-flyer than Orton has ever been.

sharkbowl said:

Also, dropkick, suplex, DDT, powerslam, clothesline, sleeper hold are all moves Orton uses.

That's because they're common wrestling moves. Most of them are on the generic COTG charts. Most of them are on US Male's card. Most of them are on Monolith's card.

sharkbowl said:

FALLEN DREAMS can also easily be seen as the RKO as it is a "falling face driver."

Where's that description from? 2119 says "reverse double underhook drop". None of the handbooks since mention any change. And there's no way that describes the RKO.

sharkbowl said:

In short, Havoc was designed based on Orton, whether or not you see it, which is the point of the thread. I see it. I love it.

So, the point of this thread was to ask a question and then declare that everybody who disagreed with you is wrong? Yeah, that sounds about right.

Maybe there was an intentional similarity. Maybe there wasn't. You're certainly in a better position to know than I am. But that's hardly the point. Talking down to people who have a different opinion is juvenile, and creating a thread purely to fish for such opinions is downright pathetic.

You know what? I actually thought you did the right thing by leaving. I thought you'd realised that your attitude was doing the COTG community as a whole, and Tom specifically, no favours. I thought you'd decided to put someone else above yourself.

Apparently I was wrong.

[sharkbowl]

I never said anyone was wrong. Show me where I said anyone was wrong. Don't put words in my mouth if you want to be taken seriously.

[jefft]

FALLEN DREAMS is definitely an Unprettier, but I feel they resemble each other more in attitude and character than moveset.

[sharkbowl]

jefft said:

FALLEN DREAMS is definitely an Unprettier, but I feel they resemble each other more in attitude and character than moveset.

Just for the record FALLEN DREAMS is the Pedigree. Obviously Tom can't use those names so he uses the closest description as can be.

When Havoc's 2122 card was written I can say with pretty much pin point accuracy that Randy Orton was at least slightly used as an influence. And in my fed, FALLEN DREAMS is the RKO.

[WRAITH]

2119 handbook
"It's clear that Havoc's arsenal of moves will put him at the top of the GWF. His Gothic Tomb is a springboard reverse DDT. FALLEN DREAMS is a reverse double under hook drop. And AETHRAN ATROCITY is a tag finisher where Paralyze grabs an inverted back breaker while Havoc delivers a top rope elbow smash! One thing is clear -- the Gladiator tag-team has a lot of ways to beat their opponents" (page 18, second to bottom paragraph)

2122 handbook
"Havoc has clearly been preparing himself for his return to GWF action. The Gothic Tomb Spike is a move where Havoc drapes his opponent over the top rope in a front facelock then drives the opponent head first into the mat! And he's perfected his FALLEN DREAMS finisher, which could be a major problem for Disaster!" (page 25, middle paragraph)

And all you people need to stop crying, I miss SWARM!!! I loved reading his stuff, we didn't always agree (see HBKvsSting) but some of you guys are taking this personally , I didn't know this was communist russia and people can't have their own opinions. 22 if it is even Swarm, is making an observation and you jump on him.

[dbfnq]

sharkbowl said:

I never said anyone was wrong. Show me where I said anyone was wrong. Don't put words in my mouth if you want to be taken seriously.

Please. Your first reply to the thread is basically:

"Hey, all you guys who voted no - did you notice the answer is actually yes?"

sharkbowl said:

Just for the record FALLEN DREAMS is the Pedigree. Obviously Tom can't use those names so he uses the closest description as can be.

The Pedigree I could buy as the intended move, although the word 'reverse' seems out of place. So what's Tanck's 'double underhook face slam'? I figured that was the Pedigree.

Tom does use a couple of official names here and there. Drury's Back Stabber is a recent example that I noticed.

[dbfnq]

hex said:

I didn't know this was communist russia and people can't have their own opinions. 22 if it is even Swarm, is making an observation and you jump on him.

Oh, the irony.

Swarm, do you want to tell him or shall I?

[jefft]

Fact: A Pedigree is a double underhook facebuster.

An Unprettier is the closest finishing move I can think of to an inverted double underhook facebuster. If Tom intended a reverse double underhook drop to be a Pedigree...he described it incorrectly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebuster

[sharkbowl]

dbfnq said:

sharkbowl said:

I never said anyone was wrong. Show me where I said anyone was wrong. Don't put words in my mouth if you want to be taken seriously.

Please. Your first reply to the thread is basically:

"Hey, all you guys who voted no - did you notice the answer is actually yes?"

Really? So you're "basically" saying "No, you didn't say that but because I hate Swarm I'm going to make something up, see it that way, convince myself that's what Swarm meant, then flame him for it."

Then you edit your post to add that Swarm's "attitude" is bad for the game. All because of a post that asks 4 people if they noticed something. That's really unfortunate.

And people wonder why Swarm killed himself.

[Eliath]

Actually I wonder why you are named "22" now?

I understand why Swarm killed himself. I get it.

[cakejedi]

dbfnq said:

You know what? I actually thought you did the right thing by leaving. I thought you'd realised that your attitude was doing the COTG community as a whole, and Tom specifically, no favours. I thought you'd decided to put someone else above yourself.

Swarm does not need me or anyone else to stand up for him, but I have to say that there is no greater ambassador for CotG than Swarm. No one can equal his passion for the game or his loyalty to Tom. His absence is a loss to these boards.

But back on topic,

I did not notice the similarities between Orton and Havoc. But then again I have not debuted Havoc in my fed yet. But now that is is pointed out to me, I think that it is pretty cool! It is a neat little glimpse into the creation of Havoc's move set.

[sharkbowl]

jefft said:

Fact: A Pedigree is a double underhook facebuster.

An Unprettier is the closest finishing move I can think of to an inverted double underhook facebuster. If Tom intended a reverse double underhook drop to be a Pedigree...he described it incorrectly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebuster

I disagree. But I see your point as well. An underhook drop, by basic definiton is starting out like the Pedigree and flipping the guy up into the air and onto his back.

So a reverse double underhook drop would mean vs. throwing the opponent up into the air from a double underhook and onto his back, the opposite of that would be to drive him down face first into the mat from the double underhook lock.

The Unprettier would have to have the word "backward" in it somewhere. Twisting backward underhook drop or something.

[sharkbowl]

And just for the record, Sly Drury reminds me a lot of Edge and US Male has some John Cena in him there somewhere...maybe that's just me.

[cakejedi]

Since we're talking inspiration for move sets, believe it or not, Cuddley Claw's high flying moves are from Rey Mysterio!!!!