I wonder if they paid respect for his victims

[Mad Dog]

To try to answer your question, Chris, according to ACLU, FBI, Federal prison and state-by-state statistics on prison sentencing and the death sentence, black men are 3 to 5 times more likely to be sentenced to death for interracial murder than they are for intra-racial murder. There have been several cases within the last decade in which black men have killed numerous (other) black men and women and received a lighter sentence than other blacks within the same legal jurisdiction who have klled a single white.

This is a little misleading though. A lot of things factor into getting the death penalty. Judge, jury composition, county it's held in all factor into this. If you're in California chances are you'll get away with life in prison. If you're in Texas your chances are much greater of getting the death penalty. Plus black on black crime happens a lot more than black on white crime..

[Joe]

maddog1981 said:

To try to answer your question, Chris, according to ACLU, FBI, Federal prison and state-by-state statistics on prison sentencing and the death sentence, black men are 3 to 5 times more likely to be sentenced to death for interracial murder than they are for intra-racial murder. There have been several cases within the last decade in which black men have killed numerous (other) black men and women and received a lighter sentence than other blacks within the same legal jurisdiction who have klled a single white.

This is a little misleading though. A lot of things factor into getting the death penalty. Judge, jury composition, county it's held in all factor into this. If you're in California chances are you'll get away with life in prison. If you're in Texas your chances are much greater of getting the death penalty. Plus black on black crime happens a lot more than black on white crime..

By your own admission, Black-on-Black crime is more frequent than Black-on-white crime. Therefore shouldn't there be more Blacks on death row for killing Blacks than there are for killing whites?

[Mad Dog]

Not necessarily. Black of black crime occures more in urban areas which tend to have more liberal judges and more liberal juries. To really make any kind of informed opinion on the differences you're going to have to look at the judges in charge, the county's record of giving out the death penalty and juror behavior patterns in the same area.

It can be misleading because say we have 8 cases of black on black crime and 2 cases of black on white crime. Now lets say 6 of those black on black crimes happened in New York and the other two happened in Virginia while the 2 black on white crimes happened in Texas.

Texas doesn't mess around with murders and will probably give both of those guys the death penalties. If you go to New York the judges and juries are less open to that option and will be constantly looking for any reason to just give life. So you might have say 2 of those 6 cases end up with the death penalty. Let's say Virginia gives both of their guys the death penalty. So you have 100% of the black on white perps getting the death penalty and only 50% of the black on black perps getting it.

This is just a general thing. Like I said earlier. You have to take into account the judge's record on giving out the death penalty, the political tilt of the county and the leanings of the jury.

If you really want to see the unfairness of the system look at crimes that a man/woman tandem committed and then see how much more time in prison the man gets despite equal guilt in a crime.

[ringsyde]

joe said:

Steven-

I had this conversation with someone the other day. The fact that he was the co-founder of America's most notorious street gang is reason enough not to get too irate over the man's execution. His founding of the Crips was what I meant when I mentioned the impact Williams had on my life.

I know far too many young men back home who had their lives ruined, and ended, indirectly by the actions of Williams. But as I pointed out, it is not the countless deaths of Black people, as well as the harm done to Black communities in areas such as Los Angeles, Seattle, St. Louis and Little Rock, that Williams was executed for, but rather the deaths of a white person and two people of Asian descent, and that is the truly disturbing aspect of this case, and the United States' criminal justice system as a whole.

You'll certainly get no argument here about the fact that numerous black lives were lost before three non-black deaths garnered the criminal justice systems attention. This speaks to the regard the system has for inner city, minority life.

My point, however, is this; I will not (even under these circumstances) use Tookie Williams' execution to champion the racial inadequecies of the American criminal justice system because his situation almost supports some of these racist beliefs. The prima facie story here is that Tookie had to become the great evil and be incarcerated before he could find the will and ability to do good. Black America has so many examples of innocent and good men who have died in prison, been executed and who sit to this day in a cell, waiting for their cause to be championed that we don't need to rally around an admitted murderer and a truly evil person to make the case for the inequality that you accurately indict.

Tookie Williams is going to be a hard sell as far as I'm concerned. The scars he left on the African American community, inner city culture and black youth are just as bad as the ones left by a partison legal system that refuses to get involved in ghetto life until the most evil aspects reach into the dominant cultural mainstream. I hear what you are saying, Joe, and I agree. I just think that there are better cases and more deserving men than Tookie Williams to use as catalysts for the argument against the system.

[jsanudo]

joe said:

gwffantrav said:

"Alleged" Joe? lol. Funny how that word is now used..lol

I think you have the "he would have never been executed if he murdered a black person" taken straight from the leftist textbook 101. They, IMO, want everyone to think whites are a bunch of racists who hate blacks. I get tired of the white/black crap. To me, a felon is a felon, white, black, mexican, oriental, or whatever and have no place in society.

Plus, what freaking proof do you have of he wouldn't have been executed if his victims were black. Talk about "alleged". Everyone I know who supports the death penalty fully supports a thug white being executed for killing an innocent black person. Heck, I'd be happy to throw the switch. It's the extreme left and hollywood who want everyone to think that whites are still a bunch of hooded klansmen in the 1950s. Geez...

I saw everyones good buddy Al Sharpton (google good Al on how he became "famous"...it's fascinating) on O'Reily last night saying ol' tookie deserves his redemption. I just wonder if he would support the redemption for a white person if they had killed a white?

Perhaps you get tired of the "white/black" crap because you have no idea of what it is like to be Black in the United States.



I don't think that all white people are "a bunch of hooded klansmen in the 1950s," but I do believe that many white seem to believe that America suddenly became a fair and equal country following the passing of a couple laws in the 1960s.

Try looking Arabic right after 9/11. Lets face it, there is bias' no matter what you look like. Asians, gays, liberals, conservatives, Mexicans, ect. have been and will continue to be biased against and for. I feel that just as much racism coming torwards Black to Whites as the other way around.

It seems, Joe, that you were angry that "Tookie" was executed because he killed 2 Asians and a White person. Why do we have to look at the race of him or his victims at all. He killed 3 people, period.

With all that being said, Joe is correct, depending on your point of view. Here is some statistics:

All of the following is from deathpenalityinfo.org

Since 1976, 339 (34%) blacks were executed. During that same time, 580 (58%) whites were executed.

Since 1976, 208 (14%) of the victims of murder were black, while 1200 (80%) where white.

Since 1976, the "white defendant, black victim" executions were 12 while "black defendant, white victim" executions were 208.

The following statistic is from the Bureau of Justice (www.ojp.usdoj.gov)
Between 1976-2002

86% of white victims were killed by whites
94% of black victims were killed by blacks

Doing alittle math, 14% of white homicide victims were attributed to blacks while 6% of black homicide victims were attributed to whites.

OK, so, statistically speaking, blacks conduct 70% of the different race homicides. However, 94% of executions that involve a homicide from where one race kills another, the defendant was black.

That leaves a 14% difference. Is this alot? I think that depends on your point of view. Personally, I think that is a large gap, but not all big as some in the media make it out to be. Remember, these are just numbers. These numbers dont take in account the severity of the murder (ie torture, domestic), if the crime was conducted in conjunction with another crime (ie robbery, rape, drug trafficing) or age of victim.

Also remember, in a majority of the Death Penalty states, the jury decides if the Death Penalty is warranted. A jury of your piers. So, white AND black juries are sending blacks to Death Row.

In conclusion, why are there even statistics for this? Are we not trying to get ride of racism in this country? It seems like people are more and more trying to blame someone else for either problems. People use racism as a crutch. The whole defence of "I killed someone but the only reason I am being executed because I killed a white" is rediculous. Tookie was executed because he killed 4 people, period!

[Chris Ingersoll]

jsanudo said:

Also remember, in a majority of the Death Penalty states, the jury decides if the Death Penalty is warranted. A jury of your piers.

Nitpick: "Peers". A "pier" is a structure on a body of water that allows for docking of boats.

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

In conclusion, why are there even statistics for this?

Because any time there is a numerical record of anything, for any subject, for any reason, someone will be interested in the statistical analysis of it. It's just what some people do. This is because everyone, everywhere, would like to know (or at least have a rough idea of) the odds before doing something, from insurance companies, big business corporations, and sports teams all the way down to a little kid whining to get his parents to buy him something, and statistics are what provides those odds.

It's something you don't even do on a conscious level: how far over the speed limit can you really be before you're really in danger of getting pulled over in this county, what are the chances of finding a parking space at the mall at noon on Christmas Eve, should I throw Wolf into the ropes or try to roll something else, etc. (Ok, maybe that last one has some thought put into it.)

In the context of eliminating racism, an awesome question. In the context of general theory, not so much.

[Joe]

JSanudo-

I am not angry that Tookie Williams was put to death. Trust me, I didn't lose a moment's sleep over his execution.

Initially I was just responding to my ultra-conservative pal's statements about why people were objecting to Williams' execution. I then went on to explain my own views on the way death sentences are handed out in this country.

I do believe race plays a major part in our criminal justice system. I am glad you called attention to statistics that back up what I say. I do, however, disagree with your notion that keeping stats such as these prolongs racism in the United States. Ignoring racial problems and discrimination is what keeps racism alive, not pointing out where it lies and attempting to correct it.

[ringsyde]

I agree with Joe here. The lack of attention paid to these disparaging numbers is what allows for the continuation of racist and unequal practices.

I wish life were so easy that you could ignore something into non-existence. That isn't going to happen with issues of race. As I have stated on other threads here and in numerous discussions and speeches on the subject, frank and open discussion and a hard look at the problems are the only ways to deal with racism effectively.

[TheOtherTravis]

joe said:

By your own admission, Black-on-Black crime is more frequent than Black-on-white crime. Therefore shouldn't there be more Blacks on death row for killing Blacks than there are for killing whites?

An idea of this is the case of Wayne Williams, who was accused of killing 29 kids in Atlanta, convicted of two counts of murder and sentenced to life in prison for each count. Wayne Williams was black and all of his victims were as well, but he's presently serving two life sentences as a guest of the Georgia Department of Corrections. A bit of an extreme case. It's disturbing that someone like this didn't get the death penalty.

I will say, jailhouse conversions never impress me, regardless of the sincerity simply because if they had not been caught, the conversion probably wouldn't have occurred. I'm not saying this is the case with all of them, but enough of them.

~Travis

[traviz]

While I don't have anything that I believe I can add to this discussion that hasn't already been said, I would like to point out to everyone that has posted on this topic that you guys have kept this on-topic (for the most part) and the fact that no one has went into name-calling or mud-slinging or out-and-out lying shows that you can have a passionate debate without all that. Most of you have presented your case clearly and with deep thought behind your post. This is how it should be.

[Chris Ingersoll]

Yeah, that's always nice.

[Darth Turkish]

traviz said:

While I don't have anything that I believe I can add to this discussion that hasn't already been said, I would like to point out to everyone that has posted on this topic that you guys have kept this on-topic (for the most part) and the fact that no one has went into name-calling or mud-slinging or out-and-out lying shows that you can have a passionate debate without all that. Most of you have presented your case clearly and with deep thought behind your post. This is how it should be.

The members of this board are surprising ( and Heaven'knows, thankfully) great about this.