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the_faction
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aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Thread Started on Jun 4, 2007, 11:22am »
So I read through the aCe and all I can say is wow. Wow that characters die. Wow that characters are reunited. Wow at the surprising turns. And wow at the expected turns.

Just a couple of things about the story I'd like to have an open discussion here. How many knew Trench had died in 2120? I went back and read the section where he was jolted and it doesn't read anything like death. So I played the year like he was under a mind control power. In fact I had a story line where Warfare was trying to get his ex-partner to break the control of the suit. To my surprise I now find he was actually just a corpse in the body suit not a free willed Centran trying to fight the control of the suit. Cool idea just don't think it was very clear in 2120.

Is aCe to Big? What I mean by this is aCe to far out there. If the proverbial *$#!^" hit the fan like this in our world would a wrestling match be able to solve it? I started to feel this way in 2120, but after reading 2121 I just wonder if these soldiers were in the ring with undead that would just bite a chunk out of their arm why wouldn't they don't just shoot them in the face. Why would they even get in the ring all together? Murdok supposedly broke the peace in 2121 with his invasion so doesn't that make aCe defunct? When in fact Aegis and company broke the pact in 2120 with their raid.

I guess I would see it from the view point of a military advancement and you fight back with such means. It just seemed so odd to have S&M take over the penetariary on Centra and they're not bringing in a SWAT division to root them out instead they get on the mic and say we'll see you in the ring. It just all seems so far over the edge that wrestling couldn't solve it. I thought it was set up as a means of solving balances when the military forces were at a stalemate, but with Murdok losing 80% of his forces just send in a tactical squad. End of story. Also there is this slight reference to getting the essence, but what exactly is that going to do in the whole life/death scheme of the battlefield?

This is by no means a negative review of 2121. I think Kris has set some incredible imagery that is so massive in scope that it boggles the mind, but I'd really like to get people's thoughts on how life altering something like aCe could be.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1 on Jun 4, 2007, 11:44am »
- The way I read Flatliner is that he was mind-controlled and slowly dying (which Rankor does say) and by the end of the year he's totally dead and robotic. The COTG files bio sums up what happened to him nicely.

- I think you have to suspend your disbelief a bit as to why 'Cosmic Battles' (like in the GWF) and aCe's battles for Essence and their very survival would be battled out in a wrestling ring. One thing that helps me is that I take my feds very seriously and they are nothing like pro wrestlers and more like ancient gladiators. Also, there is precedent for this in the fact that in the ancient world generals sometimes had their champions fight each other to determine victory in order to save their armies from slaughtering each other.

- Remember that the police on Centra are basically nonexistent nowadays - that's why Hustler and his gang were forced to be out protecting the streets.

I'm just giving alternate viewpoints or counterpoints to your suggestions, I don't totally disagree with what you're saying though.

Actually the biggest moment I had a problem with was when in the Vault Macabre when the impression was given that the Ramparts might 'steal' the Essence belt. I would think that would totally destroy the pact that makes the aCe work altogether - you're supposed to win the Essence in the ring which, like it or not, Murdok had done at that point.

Also, the rules surrounding 'who wins' are a little vague. Is the winner basically 'whoever has the belts at the end of three years'? This would make the first couple years kind of meaningless, wouldn't it? I'd be saving my guys for that third year.

It's still an awesome story - very cosmic-superheroish thing Kris has going. Perhaps he'll respond to some of these points personally. ;)
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #2 on Jun 4, 2007, 12:04pm »
I think the importance actually makes SOME sense in context... Murdok is looking for the power boost of the Essence, so he can take over, while the RoC are looking for a reprieve from constant zombie attack, for instance.

Its all about maintain the (clearly fragile) peace, IMO.

Would it ever happen in 'real life', or even in fiction that wasn't based on a wrestling game? 'Course not, but that's not that unusual...

Actually, there was that Star Trek episode where there was a planet where warring countries fought basically on a computer game then killed the correct number of people afterwards (to save the enviroment)... that's kinda similar ;)

I do agree the 'endpoint' could use clearing up.

In my fed, I picture it as whoever has the essence, attempts to use its power to gain the upper hand in their non-wrestling agenda while they have it.

Ie: Murdok might build up his army, or make the plague easier to contract.. Rankor might try to get Tribesman off Primus.. Aegis might try to cure Trisis, etc...


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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #3 on Jun 4, 2007, 12:26pm »

Quote:
- The way I read Flatliner is that he was mind-controlled and slowly dying (which Rankor does say) and by the end of the year he's totally dead and robotic. The COTG files bio sums up what happened to him nicely.


I must have glanced over that part when I was looking back through the book. That tidies that up. :)

I've always viewed the CotG universe as gladiatorial as well. Almost like star systems sent their best champions as a well to discourge other systems from attacking them. By stating hey this is how bad ass we are. Of course that logic goes out when you think, "Why hasn't Neptune been taken over then? They're fighters suck."

So yes it is the UFC of the future and apparently the ROC has just enough forces to defend and not attack I'd buy that, but what stops a sniper from just putting one in Murdok's head if he is such a force of destruction and is going to obliterate all human life?
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #4 on Jun 4, 2007, 12:57pm »
Because Osk says so. ;)
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #5 on Jun 4, 2007, 1:01pm »

Quote:
So yes it is the UFC of the future and apparently the ROC has just enough forces to defend and not attack I'd buy that, but what stops a sniper from just putting one in Murdok's head if he is such a force of destruction and is going to obliterate all human life?

Nicodemus.

"We had no real choice in the matter, Lance. Do you remember? Nicodemus appeared like some kind of scientific deity and laid down the law."
Aegis, aCe 2121: Ultimatum

Nicodemus has the power to punish any of the factions for violating the treaty thanks to the Ravagers tremendous technical superiority, but he doesn't have enough power to enact his Tabula Rasa plan without the Essence.

As I see it, the fight will come to a cessation when either Omni or Odyssey disappears. There will be a point at the timeline where either the Black Gathering will have accrued enough power with the help of the essence to send Centra towards its dark future, or the Pantheon of the White will have staved them off long enough for Tabula Rasa's window to have closed, sending Centra towards its light future.

So I don't think that winning is determined by who has the Essence at such and such date. I think it's more about having the Essence over time and using its power to accumulate it.

That's just my take on it. I'm sure that Kris will come along later and tell me I'm totally wrong. ;D
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #6 on Jun 4, 2007, 1:40pm »
This is why I can't, and won't get into a.C.e. I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring. I want to play a "wrestling" game.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #7 on Jun 4, 2007, 2:39pm »

Quote:
This is why I can't, and won't get into a.C.e. I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring. I want to play a "wrestling" game.


I can certainly understand that viewpoint - there's LOW out there.

However, if you're playing GWF or CPC - I don't see much difference. There all pretty unbelievable. Heck your own avatar was THE PRESIDENT OF THE GALAXY - yet just a few years earlier he was a crappy professional fighter and then he became more interested in gaining power over a wrestling fed. I could go on forever. GWF, CPC, aCe - all pretty unbelievable stuff, can't understand anyone having a problem with aCe but being ok with CPC or GWF.

PS: Not necessarily speaking to you BTW, just responding to your post.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #8 on Jun 4, 2007, 2:41pm »

Quote:
This is why I can't, and won't get into a.C.e. I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring. I want to play a "wrestling" game.


Your loss , plain and simple.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #9 on Jun 4, 2007, 2:48pm »

Quote:
I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring.

It's neat the way that different people's brains work. See, I can say a statement that's very similar, except it's about LOW:

I can't wrap my head around DDP wrestling Gotch.

Now, I can take angels wrestling aliens and robots for control of an entire dimension, though. That makes perfect sense to me. Clearly I'm the odd one here. ;D
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #10 on Jun 4, 2007, 2:55pm »

Quote:
This is why I can't, and won't get into a.C.e. I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring. I want to play a "wrestling" game.


Then I can't imagine the GWF is for you either. It's just as far-fetched, with Transevolvers and moving to other dimensions and military conquerers like Aethrans....etc etc etc....

It's a sci-fi based game that requires imagination and a suspension of disbelief.



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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on Jun 4, 2007, 5:23pm »
Anyone can PN me the 2121 groups lineup ?
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #12 on Jun 4, 2007, 5:48pm »
Let me just say that I love discussions like this.

Now, I'll chime in...

First off guys, keep this in mind: You really have to suspend disbelief for every and anything that has to do with comic book type characters, alien races, outer space, the future, and PRO WRESTLING.

So, as much as I respect everyone's opinion, I don't really understand how once can wrap their head around the GWF, but NOT the aCe? I mean, if it's because the aCe was formed in response to a war, must I remind you that the GWF was as well? ;D

If you want to play simply a 'wrestling game,' you've got Legends. If you want to play something that includes: comic book type characters, alien races, outer space, the future, and PRO WRESTLING, you've got the GWF, the CPC, and the aCe.

Hopefully I didn't offend with that first little rebuttal, just stating my point of view on the material that makes up the Champions of the Galaxy universe. It's all relative...I have no idea how you can 'get' one, and not the others. And when I say 'get,' I don't mean 'purchase' ;)


Onto the specifics mentioned in this post...

BDS sort of sums up what I would say in defense of the aCe trilogy and 2121 'wrap-up.' I see it like this.

2119 - The Holy War is on...the Plague is spreading...The Ravagers (as protectors of Centra) must intervene. A 'plan' is devised. The aCe is born.

2120 - The Holy War has stopped for the time being. All factions are growing stronger. Reinforcing (get it?). The factions aren't just bulking up for the aCe, but also to be ready when the inevitable happens.

2121 - The inevitable happens. Of course, being the big brained 'boss,' Nicodemus realizes this first. He aligns himself with the baddies. The Others appear and group up the goodies. Of course, the Mothership can blow everyone to bits and move on...but is that really the best way to resolve the problem and come out 'on top?' Nicodemus doesn't think so. Besides, the aCe provides the best (and only?) way to obtain the Essence. The precious element is necessary to complete his master plan.


Other thoughts:

Thank you Swarm for the compliments on the writing. You've said that from the beginning and it means alot.

It's safe to guess that Nicodemus might have had Tabula Rasa plan in mind way back when the Holy War started (2118 or
so). His mistake was not simply seizing the Essence at that point, and instead helping to sculpt the Title Belts.

It wasn't my intention to imply that the ROC was out to steal the Essence from the Vault Macabre in 2120. They were there to rescue Trisis...Murdok brought the belt into the picture. I see what you're saying though.

"but what stops a sniper from just putting one in Murdok's head if he is such a force of destruction and is going to obliterate all human life?"
aCe security is super tight. Blame that on Ravager technology...so it ain't gonna happen at an aCe event. Outside the ring I'd say Murdok wouldn't allow himself to be vulnerable to such an attack, but you never know! Just look at poor Cremator.

~ :-Xsk
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on Jun 4, 2007, 6:55pm »
I definitely see this as science fiction that's for sure. And with Sci-Fi comes the suspension of disbelief.

I guess I project certain images and fears from this world to that world and when I see an environment so torn up by war I can't help, but think of the bleakest things.

Take for example if there is some sorry sod that Paganax sends to assassinate Rankor. Now Paganax makes him feel that he was doing the right thing for all of Primus and sacraficed himself stopping Rankor from entering the building. Of course I can always imagine security is so tight in the future that they'd have some kind of way to catch any attempt like that, but hey Murdok and his space ship slipped into a whole town so anything is possible.

But taking that all out of context and if all things being equal and no one could get their hands on members of other teams outside of the ring. Then yeah I'd imagine there'd be a lot of DQ's and people would be out to maim each other rather than get a 3 count. When I think of it that way its almost like it could be booked like a UFC or boxing match. They get a match every 2-3 months and its a very big deal, not on a weekly schedule.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #14 on Jun 4, 2007, 7:09pm »
The only problem I've ever had , even disregarding disbielf is wrestling zombies and not having them try and eat you every chance they got. I always say they're muzzled somehow with maybe like a Hannibal Lecter mask or something.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on Jun 5, 2007, 8:46am »
If you can get over Mandrill, a conquering Mutant Monkey that has subjugated and killed millons of beings being in a public place and competing for fun in a wrestling ring, then the aCe should be no problem.

In other words, replace "Mandrill" with "Adolph Hitler", and see if the same things would occur.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #16 on Jun 5, 2007, 9:52am »

Quote:

Quote:
I can't wrap my head around this conflict being settled in a wrestling ring.

It's neat the way that different people's brains work. See, I can say a statement that's very similar, except it's about LOW:

I can't wrap my head around DDP wrestling Gotch.

Now, I can take angels wrestling aliens and robots for control of an entire dimension, though. That makes perfect sense to me. Clearly I'm the odd one here. ;D


See, I can agree with that too. I haven't gotten into LOW either. If I were to get it, I would have to talk myself into the "clones" storyline. That at least would make sense in my (apparently) short sided brain. I'm not saying a.C.e. is trash or bashing it, I'm just saying I wish it wasn't positioned as a "war in a wrestling ring" and more of a Roman gladiator contest. I suppose, were I to change a few rules, I really could get into a.C.e.

* all contest are last man standing
* a pin rating of 12 or higher, followed by a successful finisher result in a fatality
* there is no ring, thus no charts. A least make a four new charts for each of 4 "venues"

That's all I can think of for the time being.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #17 on Jun 5, 2007, 9:54am »

Quote:

Quote:

It's neat the way that different people's brains work. See, I can say a statement that's very similar, except it's about LOW:

I can't wrap my head around DDP wrestling Gotch.

Now, I can take angels wrestling aliens and robots for control of an entire dimension, though. That makes perfect sense to me. Clearly I'm the odd one here. ;D


See, I can agree with that too. I haven't gotten into LOW either. If I were to get it, I would have to talk myself into the "clones" storyline. That at least would make sense in my (apparently) short sided brain. I'm not saying a.C.e. is trash or bashing it, I'm just saying I wish it wasn't positioned as a "war in a wrestling ring" and more of a Roman gladiator contest. I suppose, were I to change a few rules, I really could get into a.C.e.

* all contest are last man standing
* a pin rating of 12 or higher, followed by a successful finisher result in a fatality
* there is no ring, thus no charts. A least make a four new charts for each of 4 "venues"

That's all I can think of for the time being.

Those are good ideas. I am not a big fan of fatalities, but in the aCe venue, they make sense.
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #18 on Jun 5, 2007, 11:23am »
Kris- Are you going to release an official version of what happens on Centra at the end of '21? Whether or not the Tabula Rasa happens or not?
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Re: aCe mythology (SPOILERS)
« Reply #19 on Jun 5, 2007, 5:08pm »

Quote:
I suppose, were I to change a few rules, I really could get into a.C.e.

* all contest are last man standing
* a pin rating of 12 or higher, followed by a successful finisher result in a fatality
* there is no ring, thus no charts. A least make a four new charts for each of 4 "venues"

That's all I can think of for the time being.


You know, I see it all in a very similar light...minus the fatalities (because what a mess it would make if Aegis died on your first card). ;)

As a matter of fact, Tom and I have considered taking aCe away from 'wrestling' all together. I mean the elements and mechanics would be there, but it would all head more towards fighting, special abilities, and 'environment charts.'

We'll keep mulling those possibilites over for the future, but in the mean time, definitely voice your opinion.

~ :-Xsk
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